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Thread: So this is how they do it......

  1. #11
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmylabs23139 View Post
    Let me add that they darn well should not be getting medicaid!!!! Why the heck should the gov't steal my money and give it to ILLEGALS!!!!! I would really love to hear your defense of that. THese are people who are CRIMINALS!!!
    Actually, I don't defend it. Personally, I think our immigration laws should be much looser than they are now but that whatever laws we have should be enforced. Employers employ illegal aliens for the same reason they always have -- cheap, hard working labor. As jobs dry up, illegal immigration dries up as well. There will be no end of illegal immigration as long as there is employment and the only enforcement that will ever make a difference is prosecution of employers, whether they be private individuals, farms, meat packing plants, etc.

    The border patrol approach will never work any more than raids on puppy mills change the economics of the puppy trade. Even based on workplace enforcement, however, there are no easy answers. For years I owned and ran a business where a significant portion of our staff were foreign nationals. We always verified visa status, but that does not mean that we never employed illegals. The problem is that status can change and the employer has no reasonable way of knowing that. In addition, we have no way of identifying papers that might be fraudulent. We were no more able or interested in playing the job of immigration policeman than the hospital, the local police officer, the man at the newsstand, or you. And in case you don't know, it is illegal to discriminate in employment based on national origin as long as the person is legally eligible for employment in the United States.

    However, as long as illegals are here, they will still need medical care. The care they are receiving now is generally only for medical emergencies. It may be for treatment of a contagious illness. It may be for treatment of a life threatening emergency. I assume you are not suggesting that hospital emergency rooms should withhold treatment until you can produce both an insurance card and a passport and visa. As of now, we are still not branded with our permanent citizenship number at birth.

    Most local police departments have enough to do fighting crime in their own communities and do not become involved in investigating immigration status. Hospitals are even less interested in investigating alleged immigration violations. State Medicaid programs often provide coverage for illegals because the alternative is that the bills are unpaid. In Pennsylvania, the state provides annual payments to hospitals for the unreimbursed care they are legally required to provide. The balance gets built into provider rates paid by patients and their insurance companies.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    The border patrol approach will never work any more than raids on puppy mills change the economics of the puppy trade. Even based on workplace enforcement, however, there are no easy answers. For years I owned and ran a business where a significant portion of our staff were foreign nationals. We always verified visa status, but that does not mean that we never employed illegals. The problem is that status can change and the employer has no reasonable way of knowing that. In addition, we have no way of identifying papers that might be fraudulent. We were no more able or interested in playing the job of immigration policeman than the hospital, the local police officer, the man at the newsstand, or you. And in case you don't know, it is illegal to discriminate in employment based on national origin as long as the person is legally eligible for employment in the United States.
    Dead solid perfect. Turning the border into a DMZ is a monument to stupidity and pisses money down a deep, dark hole. Workplace enforcement is the only sensible method to reduce illegal immigration. But before they can start cracking down on employers they need to fix the paperwork snafus and easily forged documentation first. A good start would be to require federally standardized drivers license/IDs.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member TXduckdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Actually, I don't defend it. Personally, I think our immigration laws should be much looser than they are now but that whatever laws we have should be enforced. Employers employ illegal aliens for the same reason they always have -- cheap, hard working labor. As jobs dry up, illegal immigration dries up as well. There will be no end of illegal immigration as long as there is employment and the only enforcement that will ever make a difference is prosecution of employers, whether they be private individuals, farms, meat packing plants, etc.

    The border patrol approach will never work any more than raids on puppy mills change the economics of the puppy trade. Even based on workplace enforcement, however, there are no easy answers. For years I owned and ran a business where a significant portion of our staff were foreign nationals. We always verified visa status, but that does not mean that we never employed illegals. The problem is that status can change and the employer has no reasonable way of knowing that. In addition, we have no way of identifying papers that might be fraudulent. We were no more able or interested in playing the job of immigration policeman than the hospital, the local police officer, the man at the newsstand, or you. And in case you don't know, it is illegal to discriminate in employment based on national origin as long as the person is legally eligible for employment in the United States.

    However, as long as illegals are here, they will still need medical care. The care they are receiving now is generally only for medical emergencies. It may be for treatment of a contagious illness. It may be for treatment of a life threatening emergency. I assume you are not suggesting that hospital emergency rooms should withhold treatment until you can produce both an insurance card and a passport and visa. As of now, we are still not branded with our permanent citizenship number at birth.

    Most local police departments have enough to do fighting crime in their own communities and do not become involved in investigating immigration status. Hospitals are even less interested in investigating alleged immigration violations. State Medicaid programs often provide coverage for illegals because the alternative is that the bills are unpaid. In Pennsylvania, the state provides annual payments to hospitals for the unreimbursed care they are legally required to provide. The balance gets built into provider rates paid by patients and their insurance companies.


    Sadly, you are correct in this assessment. Thats why this massive financial drain needs to be reformed as well. To me this is more important than the the current HC system.
    Train the dog, the ribbons will take care of themselves.

  4. #14
    Senior Member luvmylabs23139's Avatar
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    There are also quirks, or intentional loopholes, however you want to look at it, that actually make it difficult for employers to verify the status of a person.
    Read an I-9 form. A HR person cannot require a person to provide a social security card as a form of proof of eligability. This has nothing to do with a fraudulent one being provided, there are options on the I-9 form that means a ss card does not need to be provided.
    Payroll can however request a ss card at any time from any employee and it must be provided within a certain time frame (maybe 72 hrs) or the employee may be terminated.
    That person can be hired , work that amount of time, and must be paid for that time worked.

  5. #15
    Senior Member M&K's Retrievers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    If I remember the numbers correctly, I believe about 40% of illegal immigrants are currently insured -- typically through their employer and in some cases through Medicaid. That would be consistent with the CBO's estimate of the number that would be uninsured under the new program.
    Oh crap! That does it. Do you really think that the type of employer who hires illegals is going to provide benefiits. Give me a break! They hire them because they are inexpensive and/or willing to do some crappy job that no one else will do for the wage they are willing to pay. The benefits they get are paid for by taxpayers in the form of free medical care. Wake up.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&K's Retrievers View Post
    Oh crap! That does it. Do you really think that the type of employer who hires illegals is going to provide benefiits. Give me a break! They hire them because they are inexpensive and/or willing to do some crappy job that no one else will do for the wage they are willing to pay. The benefits they get are paid for by taxpayers in the form of free medical care. Wake up.
    Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level. The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)

  7. #17
    Senior Member M&K's Retrievers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level. The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)
    I believe I said "illegal". My guess is that the the 56% cited are here legally and work for employers who provide group insurance benefits.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level.The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)
    I might guess that among the 79% above the poverty level might well be a fair number in the medical profession. As we all know, there are many foreign-born doctors practicing here today. That would also likely raise the median household income. Those might also account for a good share of the 56% with insurance.

    OTOH, would these census figures take into account illegal aliens? How accurate would such a count of illegals be?
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  9. #19
    Senior Member luvmylabs23139's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Well, you made me go back and check. In fact, of the approximately 22 million non-citizen, foreign born people in the US, 21% have incomes below the Federal poverty level and 44% are uninsured. The other way of looking at that is that 56% have insurance and 79% have incomes above the poverty level. The median household income for this population was almost $38,000 (vs about $50,000 for the population as a whole). Not all are in crappy jobs. (Source: Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf)

    There is huge difference between non-citizen foreign born and being illegal!!!

  10. #20
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    I might guess that among the 79% above the poverty level might well be a fair number in the medical profession. As we all know, there are many foreign-born doctors practicing here today. That would also likely raise the median household income. Those might also account for a good share of the 56% with insurance.

    OTOH, would these census figures take into account illegal aliens? How accurate would such a count of illegals be?
    The census figures definitely attempt to count illegals. I believe the estimate os that about 2/3 of the foreign born non-citizens are illegals (around 12-14 million). On that basis, a substantial portion are still covered by insurance.

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