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Thread: So this is how they do it......

  1. #21
    Senior Member M&K's Retrievers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    The census figures definitely attempt to count illegals. I believe the estimate os that about 2/3 of the foreign born non-citizens are illegals (around 12-14 million). On that basis, a substantial portion are still covered by insurance.
    Even if they are, which I doubt, they eithor bought it themselves or have it provided by their employer which is fine. It wasn't given to them by thee and me as the libs would have it under new legislation.
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  2. #22
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    Wonder where Yardley is???
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Is my math fuzzy?

    56% of non-citizens are insured. 67% of non-citizens are illegals. I would have to believe, then, that at least 11% of the illegals are NOT insured. I would expect that the illegals would be more highly represented among the UN-insured than legal immigrant non-citizens.

    11% of 11 million is 1.2 million uninsured at minimum?

    If 15% of citizens are uninsured, it seems a little off-base to think that more illegals are actually insured than citizens ... considering that the illegals would generally want to conceal their presence here, and insurance might compromise the concealment effort.

    It might be reasonable to assume that some illegals who have been here a long time might be insured, but assuming that 89% of them were insured would be ignoring entirely the legal non-citizens ... and I might expect that the legal immigrants would be more likely to have medical insurance. For example, I'm sure that there are many legal non-citizens in this country as employees of large, multi-national corporations (think Toyota, Olympus, & other companies that routinely have employees being temporarily assigned here in the US; and also have Americans routinely assigned to other countries as legal non-citizens in those countries). I would fully expect that such legal non-citizens would all have medical coverage.

    I don't think it would be as reasonable to assume that illegal non-citizens have a higher percent of covered individuals than legal non-citizens.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Is my math fuzzy?

    56% of non-citizens are insured. 67% of non-citizens are illegals. I would have to believe, then, that at least 11% of the illegals are NOT insured. I would expect that the illegals would be more highly represented among the UN-insured than legal immigrant non-citizens.

    11% of 11 million is 1.2 million uninsured at minimum?

    If 15% of citizens are uninsured, it seems a little off-base to think that more illegals are actually insured than citizens ... considering that the illegals would generally want to conceal their presence here, and insurance might compromise the concealment effort.

    It might be reasonable to assume that some illegals who have been here a long time might be insured, but assuming that 89% of them were insured would be ignoring entirely the legal non-citizens ... and I might expect that the legal immigrants would be more likely to have medical insurance. For example, I'm sure that there are many legal non-citizens in this country as employees of large, multi-national corporations (think Toyota, Olympus, & other companies that routinely have employees being temporarily assigned here in the US; and also have Americans routinely assigned to other countries as legal non-citizens in those countries). I would fully expect that such legal non-citizens would all have medical coverage.

    I don't think it would be as reasonable to assume that illegal non-citizens have a higher percent of covered individuals than legal non-citizens.
    No, your math is not fuzzy. Someone else's is. Remember, liars figure and figures lie
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  5. #25
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Is my math fuzzy?

    56% of non-citizens are insured. 67% of non-citizens are illegals. I would have to believe, then, that at least 11% of the illegals are NOT insured. I would expect that the illegals would be more highly represented among the UN-insured than legal immigrant non-citizens.

    11% of 11 million is 1.2 million uninsured at minimum?

    If 15% of citizens are uninsured, it seems a little off-base to think that more illegals are actually insured than citizens ... considering that the illegals would generally want to conceal their presence here, and insurance might compromise the concealment effort.

    It might be reasonable to assume that some illegals who have been here a long time might be insured, but assuming that 89% of them were insured would be ignoring entirely the legal non-citizens ... and I might expect that the legal immigrants would be more likely to have medical insurance. For example, I'm sure that there are many legal non-citizens in this country as employees of large, multi-national corporations (think Toyota, Olympus, & other companies that routinely have employees being temporarily assigned here in the US; and also have Americans routinely assigned to other countries as legal non-citizens in those countries). I would fully expect that such legal non-citizens would all have medical coverage.

    I don't think it would be as reasonable to assume that illegal non-citizens have a higher percent of covered individuals than legal non-citizens.
    I think your math is fuzzy. 44% of all foreign born non-citizens are uninsured. I suspect that the number of uninsured is higher among the two-thirds that are illegals than it is among the one-third that are legals. If we assume that 75% of legals are insured (probably too high an estimate), then that would mean that about 46% of the illegals would be insured and 56% would be uninsured. That compares with 15% of the total population that is uninsured.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I think your math is fuzzy. 44% of all foreign born non-citizens are uninsured. I suspect that the number of uninsured is higher among the two-thirds that are illegals than it is among the one-third that are legals. If we assume that 75% of legals are insured (probably too high an estimate), then that would mean that about 46% of the illegals would be insured and 56% would be uninsured. That compares with 15% of the total population that is uninsured.
    Jeff, I don't where you get your numbers but I'm sure that its closer to 100% of illegals are uninsured. Even if they could afford it, it would be dificult if not impossible for them to purchase it without SS numbers, bank accounts, health histories, drivers licenses or for that matter a home address or home phone number. Employers who hire illegals are not providing benefits so where are they getting this coverage you say they have? Get in the real world and stop believing all the crap you read.
    Last edited by M&K's Retrievers; 10-12-2009 at 01:20 PM.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&K's Retrievers View Post
    Jeff, I don't where you get your numbers but I'm sure that its closer to 100% of illegals are uninsured. Even if they could afford it, it would be dificult if not impossible for them to purchase it without SS numbers, bank accounts, health histories, drivers licenses or for that matter a home address or home phone number. Employers who hire illegals are not providing benefits so where are they getting this coverage you say they have? Get in the real world and stop believing all the crap you read.
    Hmmmmm. No coment I guess??
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  8. #28
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&K's Retrievers View Post
    Hmmmmm. No coment I guess??
    Believe it or not, I actually do things other than read this forum....

    I cited the source for my data. Feel free to check it. I know both statistically and from personal experience that you are wrong. Many illegals have health insurance. In fact, many have regular, on the books jobs, with pay checks from which taxes are withheld every week as well. Some illegals actually entered the country legally, obtained social security numbers legally, but failed to leave when their visas expired. These people are actually able to obtain jobs with few obstacles. Others are able to work using invalid papers. Finally, in some states, some illegals may still receive Medicaid coverage which is classified as insurance fro purposes of identifying the uninsured. A number of states do not require proof of citizenship to enroll in Medicaid and a House bill to require such proof was defeated last July.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Believe it or not, I actually do things other than read this forum....

    I cited the source for my data. Feel free to check it. I know both statistically and from personal experience that you are wrong. Many illegals have health insurance. In fact, many have regular, on the books jobs, with pay checks from which taxes are withheld every week as well. Some illegals actually entered the country legally, obtained social security numbers legally, but failed to leave when their visas expired. These people are actually able to obtain jobs with few obstacles. Others are able to work using invalid papers. Finally, in some states, some illegals may still receive Medicaid coverage which is classified as insurance fro purposes of identifying the uninsured. A number of states do not require proof of citizenship to enroll in Medicaid and a House bill to require such proof was defeated last July.
    Well, I did check out your source and illegal is not mentioned -not once. Foreign born does not mean illegal which I believe I mentioned earlier. You keep confusing/combining illegals with foreign born. Maybe your firm hires illegals and provides benefits to those with "documentation" but I doubt it. I could go on but after reading your source, my eyes are crossed and my head hurts. You didn't do that on purpose did you?
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  10. #30
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&K's Retrievers View Post
    Well, I did check out your source and illegal is not mentioned -not once. Foreign born does not mean illegal which I believe I mentioned earlier. You keep confusing/combining illegals with foreign born. Maybe your firm hires illegals and provides benefits to those with "documentation" but I doubt it. I could go on but after reading your source, my eyes are crossed and my head hurts. You didn't do that on purpose did you?
    From Reuters:

    "- A total of 9.7 million among the uninsured said they were "not a citizen." Foreign students and workers legally in the country as well as illegal immigrants are included in this sub-group, according to Census Bureau researchers.

    - Census Bureau researchers are not allowed to ask respondents about their immigration status. Almost all estimates of the number of uninsured illegal immigrants are based on extrapolations from Census surveys.


    - There are 6.1 million uninsured adults who are illegal immigrants and 700,000 uninsured children who are illegal immigrants, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Pew Hispanic Center, which was based on Census data."


    The Census data do not mention illegals since they are not permitted to ask. They count everyone regardless of legal status. As a general rule, conservatives have been the ones most focused on the legal vs illegal status question as a basis for arguing that the uninsured population is primarily a problem of illegals. None of the estimates address the question of all illegals vs uninsured illegals. Many have addressed the question of the percentage of illegals among the total population of foreign born non-citizens. The Census data estimates the total number of non-citizen foreign born at 22 million: 56% with insurance and 44% (9.7 million) without. The number of foreign born illegals is generally estimated at about 12 million based on a study by the Pew Institute that is regularly cited by both conservatives and liberals (See http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=107). That would imply that 10 million of the foreign born non-citizens are here legally. It is also generally accepted that legal foreign born non-citizens are less likely to have health insurance than the general population.


    Given these facts, it is clear that


    • Many illegal immigrants have health insurance (the total number of illegals exceeds the number of foreign born non-citizens without health insurance: 12 million - 9.7 million = 2.3 million).
    • Some of the foreign born non-citizens without health insurance are undoubtedly not covered by health insurance. If we assume that 15% of these people are not insured (the rate for the overall population), then the number of uninsured legal immigrants would total 1.5 million. These people would be part of the 9.7 million total uninsured foreign born non-citizens, leaving 8.2 million (9.7 - 1.5) of the uninsured foreign born non-citizens who are illegal immigrants out of the total population of 12 million illegals. That means that 3.8 million illegals (27%) actually have insurance (12 - 8.2). This estimate is probably low since I doubt that 85% of legals have health insurance
    • If we accept the Reuters estimate of about 6.8 million illegals without insurance, then 5.2 million illegals (44%), have insurance, which is the percentage I cited in my first post on this question.
    My company never knowingly hired an illegal immigrant. All had documentation. However, some had visas that expired -- a fact that we did not know -- and some went "out of status" while their applications were being processed. If ultimately approved, this was not an issue. If ultimately denied, they were terminated. However for the period of time that they were out of status they were technically illegal. All had health insurance.

    I have no way of estimating how many of the documented immigrants that we hired were actually using forged documents. I suspect the percentage was very low since almost all of our staff had graduate degrees which we also verified and were working in highly technical fields. I suspect that the incidence of forged documents is much higher among manual laborers in transient jobs and that the efforts to weed out illegals are a lot less focused than ours.
    Last edited by YardleyLabs; 10-13-2009 at 06:17 AM.

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