Help me understand this rule

[Kim Williams]

"Back" means "back" and if you don't go on a blind you are eliminated, however "give" does not mean "give", it means you can chomp down on the birds for 2 more minutes, play tug of war with the handler or try to grab it out of the judges hand or take it back after its placed on the bird rack. Why are these dogs not eliminated. There should be no confusion of "GIVE!"

[limiman12]

At higher levels dogs are severally faulted or dropped for this, at least in NAHRA. I do think that there is a wide variance of what "mouth habits" are tolerated. And some leaway is and should be given according to bird condition. A dog that is clean with the birds ealry in a test (when birds are fresh) but is "mouthy" with a bird that has been retireved 5-10 or more times by the end of the day and is water logged I will give a little more leaway to when I am judging.


So to me "sticking or freezing " is a significant fault, but I will tolerate other mouthiness depending on the condition.

[Kim Williams]

I am not seeing dogs wanting to hang on to a stinky waterlogged duck but they refuse to give up a flyer or the last bird. We are talking all-age stakes here.

[afdahl]

I'm not a judge, and can't say what others think, but I've been beaten at least once by a dog with an ugly delivery.

For a retriever not to retrieve is the ultimate failure. Judging never has the chance to start.

Mouth is important and we all recognize that. Judges vary on how severe they are on sticking/freezing. It is generally recognized to be a very difficult training problem, occurring in dogs that are otherwise tractable, and sometimes developing only when the dog is quite advanced, and earns a certain amount of sympathy. It also occurs at the end of a test, sometimes after a dog has demonstrated brilliant work that puts the rest of the field to shame. Then the judge is weighing one fault in one dog's work against another fault in another dog's work, i.e. judging.

Amy Dahl

[MDowney]

I have seen in at least two Senior tests this year dogs that were dropped for poor mouth habits.

[Ted Shih]

Probably because

Failure to go when sent on a blind retrieve is a "Serious" fault

While

Extreme freezing is a "Serious" fault

But

Slight freezing is only a "Minor" fault

[limiman12]

Did not realize you were talking about TRIALS here. I assumed I guess HT's...

I have been told that there are some trial judges that once the dog has the bird they "quit judging" Like I said, that is hearsay, but it would corrospond with what you are saying.....

[FOM]

Did not realize you were talking about TRIALS here. I assumed I guess HT's...

I have been told that there are some trial judges that once the dog has the bird they "quit judging" Like I said, that is hearsay, but it would corrospond with what you are saying.....

I would say that is true unless the dog and handler give the judge a reason to start up again - i.e. handling on the return, fighting to get the bird, etc....

I know once the dog has the bird I stop scribbling pictures, but it doesn't mean I stop paying attention....I think that is true for most judges.

FOM

[Kim Williams]

So how many "minor" make a "serious" fault? comes out of the holding blind not at heel, minor, creeps, minor, barks on line, minor and chomps on birds, minor.

[Gun_Dog2002]

HT Guideliness page 45 discusses this in some detail

On page 60 under Serious faults it lists -

3. Failure to deliver to hand.
4. Freezing – refusal to release a bird on delivery for an
unreasonable period of time or until compelled to do so by
severe methods.
5. Hard Mouth – badly damaging a bird, or making it
unfit for human consumption, which in the opinion of the judges

was caused solely by the dog without justification.

On page 61 under minor faults
9. Slight freezing - reluctance to give up a bird.

/Paul