House plan mandates payment for abortions...by all.

[Gun_Dog2002]

Actually, it's not an issue of moral equivalency at all. Abortion, whether you like it or not, is a completely legal medical procedure. For as long as that is true, it has the same status as any other medical procedure, whether that be a tonsillectomy or a heart bypass. For those who believe that abortions are a form of murder, the answer is simple -- convince enough people to change the law and it can be driven back into the alleys where our children can risk their futures and their lives to end pregnancies with which they cannot live. Personally, I remember the pre-Roe v. Wade world too well to ever want to see it return.

However, as long as the procedure remains legal, one should be careful about which approaches are used in efforts to make it more difficult. For each such road sets a precedent that will inevitably be used against some other procedure in the future. Maybe the next target will be birth control or sterilization procedures, or maybe even child birth expenses for any more than ten (nine, eight, seven....) children because why should we all have to subsidize the irresponsible profligacy of the few?

So is breast enhancement. Can you send me 5k so I can get new tits for my significant other?

/Paul

[Gun_Dog2002]

There is none so blind as one who will not see.

The commandment you cite is found in Exodus 20:13. It was written in Hebrew just so you know.
From the theological wordbook of the old testament:
Thou shalt not MURDER.
rāṣaḥ (murder) is a purely Hebrew term. It has no clear cognate in any of the contemporary tongues. The root occurs thirty-eight times in the ot, with fourteen occurrences in Num 35. The initial use of the root appears in the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:13). In that important text it appears in the simple Qal stem with the negative adverb, “You shall not murder,” being a more precise reading than the too-general KJV “thou shalt not kill.”
Harris, R. Laird ; Harris, Robert Laird ; Archer, Gleason Leonard ; Waltke, Bruce K.: Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. electronic ed. Chicago : Moody Press, 1999, c1980, S. 860

Our troops are not murdering the enemy. Unless you think they are murderers and would like to weigh in on that.
Unborn children are being murdered. Unless you think there is some kind of war against the unborn you want to tell us about.
The word in Hebrew is murder. English sometimes gets in the way of our understanding of Biblical languages.

Since you want to argue using the Bible, let's see what it says about unborn children shall we.

Psalm 139: For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
The New King James Version.

Isaiah 44: 24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Pretty clear what God thinks about the unborn. They are His, He formed them and He has a purpose for them. People murder them out of convenience. They have enough to worry about without having to live with the consequences of their own bad decisions. Easier to take the life out of the womb than raise a child. So anyway it is a choice; it is choosing to kill another human being, your own child, for convenience.

The only way you can call it a medical procedure is that there is an MD involved. It is not necessary, it does not improve the health of the patient, one of them dies. In my experience medical procedures have some benefit to the person receiving them.

Please share with me the benefit of an abortion? Hmmm?

P.S. I am not now, nor do I plan to be involved in adultery. unless you could hook me up with Sandra Bullock

You forgot the mosaic law calling for the death of a person causing the death of an unborn child.

(Exodus 21:22-25) 22 “And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23 But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

[Gun_Dog2002]

I won't get into a Biblical argument with you, but I think those passages are all open to individual interpretation as to whether it is the human form or the soul that was being referred to. In my mind, it certainly is not proof that mortal life begins at conception. I think it refers to the eternal soul, that always has been, is, and always will be. Conception, birth, life, death are all just points along an eternal continuum.

In Genesis, there is a reference to earthly life beginning when God "breaths life into the lungs of man". That could easily be interpreted as a newborn's first breath of life, that expands the lungs and begins life on earth.

JMHO

Really, better read Exodus then.

/Paul

[dnf777]

Really, better read Exodus then.

/Paul

That's exactly why I prefaced my comments with "I won't get into a Bilblical argument...".

I know full and well that ANY position humans can debate has support for, and against in the Bible. At worst, wars and crusades are started this way...at best, and endless RTF thread with no conclusion in sight!

Have a good one,
dave

[YardleyLabs]

So is breast enhancement. Can you send me 5k so I can get new tits for my significant other?

/Paul

Actually the distinction comes from the term "medically necessary" and the exclusion of cosmetic procedures. Health insurance routinely pays for breast reconstruction for women who have lost a breast. When my first child was born, insurance policies routinely excluded payment of costs related to routine child birth, but provided coverage in the event of medical complications. Thus, part of our family planning involved saving the money for the hospital and doctor bills. When we were expecting our second child, an HMO plan provided maternity benefits while the standard fee for service coverage did not. We changed policies to take advantage of the maternity benefits. I actually have no problem with insurance plans voluntarily offering or not offering specific benefits -- such as maternity care or family planning services -- to attract customers as long as those services are not essential for preservation of the life of the covered person (By the way, children are not covered until born). I object to the law preventing coverage for services that are otherwise legal, although I would not have a problem with, for example, a law that denied tax deductibility for a service that was not medically necessary (e.g. cosmetic surgery).

[ducknwork]

How is an abortion of convenience deemed medically necessary?

[Roger Perry]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducknwork
First, I don't think adultery is exclusive to the right, although you will probably contest that it is.

Second, nobody has made any religious references on this thread in opposition to abortion. (Correct me if I'm wrong) You are the first to bring up 'Thou shalt not kill'. Apparently, you assume that religion is the only reason that someone could possibly be opposed to abortion. I have asked more than once about these other foolish examples that our resident libs have given and whether or not they take away a human's right to life. I have received no responses. (Big surprise) So, perhaps Mr. Perry can shed some light on the subject. What other legal medical procedure takes away the right to life from a human being (not to mention an innocent one that cannot defend itself)?

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness regards,
You are awfully silent on this Mr. Perry...


I know you all celebrate your birthdays, when was the last time you celebrated your conception day?

[Roger Perry]

First, I don't think adultery is exclusive to the right, although you will probably contest that it is.

Second, nobody has made any religious references on this thread in opposition to abortion. ,

Let's see Leddyman wrote:
Psalm 139: For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
The New King James Version.

Isaiah 44: 24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Gun Dog 2002 wrote:
You forgot the mosaic law calling for the death of a person causing the death of an unborn child.

(Exodus 21:22-25) 22 “And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23 But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

I believe if I am not mistaken "quotes from the bible"

Seems like I have hit a nerve with the far right.

[road kill]

"A woman has the right to choose....."
What if that baby is a woman?
What if she "CHOOSES" to live??

Too bad, huh!!

GEEZ, no one wants to touch this one?
I think it's a legit question.

Yardley, Roger, Jdog, BUZZ anyone???

[Pete]

Terry thats all great stuff.
I would recommend anyone looking for biblical answeres in trying to figure out when human life begins in the site of God, should do word studies on
Made,formed ,created and breath life ,, and body ,soul and spirit. Look up and read all the verses that deal with these subjects. It will blow your socks off weather you are a scientist or not.
You will find great parallels between the physical and the spiritual.
This stuff is also scientifically acurate.

The answeres are there and no one needs to interpret them. Most of it is self interpreting. Backed up by !st or 2nd Peter 1:20 ,21

Anyway not trying to change minds just letting those of you who have a thirst for what is true know its there.
You wont read about it in sunday school or church that I can guarentee.

Pete