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Thread: USN Seals Debacle

  1. #11
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    Come on, you know me better than that. Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, USCG, and the Merchant Marines....all honorable service. One caveat though, you have to SHOW UP for duty...not skip out to help campaigns and skip physicals which include the famous "pee-tests"! Donning a flight suit and riding the jump-seat to a political photo-op 30 years later doesn't count, either.

    Yes, Carter was near the top of his class at Annapolis, and served as an engineer in the Submariner fleet. Gerald Ford, also.

    Hey, as a veteran of the Army (Ain't Ready for Marines Yet) I don't poke fun at any of the brother services!

    Oh....you are referencing the Dan Rather thing, I see now!!
    Stan b & Elvis

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    dnf777-

    You're referring to the popular culture rather than factual information.

    Ex-President Bush served honorably in the Air National Guard. In that position he pulled alerts and intercepts. When he tried to volunteer to go to VN, he had insufficient hours in the aircraft.

    He moved to Montgomery and things get sort of hazy. Folks say they saw him at Dannelly Field but the records are not found. Given that this was during a massive phase down of the military post-VN and 30+ years ago, some laxity in record-keeping is understandable. Who knew they'd need those records to argue a point on an Internet (not invented by Gore yet) discussion. IOW, the fact that records can't be found is an indication of nothing other than that the records can't be found. It says nothing about whether or not they ever existed.

    Ex-President Bush separated from the Air National Guard with an Honorable Discharge after serving about 5.5 years of a six year committment. However, in the 1972-73 era, there were all manner of "early outs" and encourgements to leaving early as the force draw-down took place. Qualified in a soon-to-be obsolete aircraft and with so few months left on his committment that transition training wasn't warranted, I can see why he was released. To the Air Force he was just one more person they didn't need to find a place for.

    However, during his service, he had 300+ hours flying an aircraft that would scare the bejeebers out of most of us. In fact, most of his hours were spent flying with white ones on the rails. He took a different route than you or I but don't ever belittle his service.

    Eric

  3. #13
    Senior Member Clay Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    dnf777-

    You're referring to the popular culture rather than factual information.

    Ex-President Bush served honorably in the Air National Guard. In that position he pulled alerts and intercepts. When he tried to volunteer to go to VN, he had insufficient hours in the aircraft.

    He moved to Montgomery and things get sort of hazy. Folks say they saw him at Dannelly Field but the records are not found. Given that this was during a massive phase down of the military post-VN and 30+ years ago, some laxity in record-keeping is understandable. Who knew they'd need those records to argue a point on an Internet (not invented by Gore yet) discussion. IOW, the fact that records can't be found is an indication of nothing other than that the records can't be found. It says nothing about whether or not they ever existed.

    Ex-President Bush separated from the Air National Guard with an Honorable Discharge after serving about 5.5 years of a six year committment. However, in the 1972-73 era, there were all manner of "early outs" and encourgements to leaving early as the force draw-down took place. Qualified in a soon-to-be obsolete aircraft and with so few months left on his committment that transition training wasn't warranted, I can see why he was released. To the Air Force he was just one more person they didn't need to find a place for.

    However, during his service, he had 300+ hours flying an aircraft that would scare the bejeebers out of most of us. In fact, most of his hours were spent flying with white ones on the rails. He took a different route than you or I but don't ever belittle his service.

    Eric
    Excellant post.
    RIP SGT. David Blake Williams KIA 22 Mar 2008 Iraq


    Every day should be Veteran's day.


    "They say War is Hell, but I have to disagree. War is easy. It's the living afterwards thats hell." Author Unknown

  4. #14
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    dnf777-

    You're referring to the popular culture rather than factual information.

    Ex-President Bush served honorably in the Air National Guard. In that position he pulled alerts and intercepts. When he tried to volunteer to go to VN, he had insufficient hours in the aircraft.

    He moved to Montgomery and things get sort of hazy. Folks say they saw him at Dannelly Field but the records are not found. Given that this was during a massive phase down of the military post-VN and 30+ years ago, some laxity in record-keeping is understandable. Who knew they'd need those records to argue a point on an Internet (not invented by Gore yet) discussion. IOW, the fact that records can't be found is an indication of nothing other than that the records can't be found. It says nothing about whether or not they ever existed.

    Ex-President Bush separated from the Air National Guard with an Honorable Discharge after serving about 5.5 years of a six year committment. However, in the 1972-73 era, there were all manner of "early outs" and encourgements to leaving early as the force draw-down took place. Qualified in a soon-to-be obsolete aircraft and with so few months left on his committment that transition training wasn't warranted, I can see why he was released. To the Air Force he was just one more person they didn't need to find a place for.

    However, during his service, he had 300+ hours flying an aircraft that would scare the bejeebers out of most of us. In fact, most of his hours were spent flying with white ones on the rails. He took a different route than you or I but don't ever belittle his service.

    Eric
    I appreciate you comments, however the military tends not to be "lax" when it comes to personnel reporting issues. The whole issue of how he could leap-frog over ~2000 men waiting for a pilot slot in the ANG in the first place has never been satisfactorily answered. Also, when I served as a physician (very much in demand and difficult to quickly replace, just like pilots) I had to fight and fight to get my 201 when my time was up. In fact, they clung to me for almost 6 months delaying my discharge. An early out for a qualified pilot during war time is pretty suspicious. Not many people I know from that era (none, to be exact) who served were given early outs, unless they were medically discharged for acute lead poisoning or were a senator's son. There ARE records of him failing to report for physicals BTW. I never have heard that refuted nor explained.
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

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    Ex-President Bush was discharged after the deadline for all fighting in Viet Nam was past. In the year or so prior, the Air Force was indeed in a draw-down mode as I recall. All efforts were expended at LineBacker II and if you were a pilot and were not involved in LBII, you took a back seat. I can't say more than that but, pilots of other than bombers who couldn't go to Viet Nam were a dime a dozen. B-52 pilots were being called up from the reserves. Other pilots were being let go in droves all through 1972-73.

    So...you'd like me to believe that 30+ years ago that ex-President Bush was released from National Guard duty to advance .... what? He applied for discharge and it was granted on the basis of an accepted application to Yale. Are you suggesting that although the records state very clearly "Honorable Discharge", it was somehow something else and someone knew 30+ years in advance to put the fix it? Be serious!

    As a practical matter, you served in the Army, not the Air Force. As such, you'd not have a clue about Air Force personnel policy and programs. The Army, especially the Medical Service, is known for being less efficient than the Air Force<g>. I served in a joint billet at the AF Data Systems Design Center. The stories I could tell about Army Medical Service mis-management. One I particularly like is about the time that I removed the Army Chief of Staff's outpatient record from under a hat in the front hall of the Walter Reed OOM at noon.

    Eric

  6. #16
    Senior Member Clay Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    I appreciate you comments, however the military tends not to be "lax" when it comes to personnel reporting issues. The whole issue of how he could leap-frog over ~2000 men waiting for a pilot slot in the ANG in the first place has never been satisfactorily answered. Also, when I served as a physician (very much in demand and difficult to quickly replace, just like pilots) I had to fight and fight to get my 201 when my time was up. In fact, they clung to me for almost 6 months delaying my discharge. An early out for a qualified pilot during war time is pretty suspicious. Not many people I know from that era (none, to be exact) who served were given early outs, unless they were medically discharged for acute lead poisoning or were a senator's son. There ARE records of him failing to report for physicals BTW. I never have heard that refuted nor explained.
    I received an early out in 1993 when clinton was elected prez. My MOS was only at 27%, never had any behavior problems, made E-5 in less than 3 years and was E-6 promotable when I got out. So I can believe it. Also, his dad probably had alot to do with it. But at least he didn't burn the American Flag in England and then become president.
    RIP SGT. David Blake Williams KIA 22 Mar 2008 Iraq


    Every day should be Veteran's day.


    "They say War is Hell, but I have to disagree. War is easy. It's the living afterwards thats hell." Author Unknown

  7. #17
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    I appreciate you comments, however the military tends not to be "lax" when it comes to personnel reporting issues. The whole issue of how he could leap-frog over ~2000 men waiting for a pilot slot in the ANG in the first place has never been satisfactorily answered. Also, when I served as a physician (very much in demand and difficult to quickly replace, just like pilots) I had to fight and fight to get my 201 when my time was up. In fact, they clung to me for almost 6 months delaying my discharge. An early out for a qualified pilot during war time is pretty suspicious. Not many people I know from that era (none, to be exact) who served were given early outs, unless they were medically discharged for acute lead poisoning or were a senator's son. There ARE records of him failing to report for physicals BTW. I never have heard that refuted nor explained.
    Like I said, the whole Dan Rather thing.
    Stan b & Elvis

  8. #18
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post

    As a practical matter, you served in the Army, not the Air Force. As such, you'd not have a clue about Air Force personnel policy and programs. The Army, especially the Medical Service, is known for being less efficient than the Air Force<g>.
    Eric
    There seems to be a real epidemic of people thinking they know so much about others! When I was attached to the 108th ADA as part of JTF-SWA (the "J" stands for "joint"....as in Army, Air Force, and Marines, and Navy) we worked at the Eskan Village Air Force Hospital, so I have first hand knowledge of Air Force medical facilities. I'll be the first to agree with you on the Army Medical Service Corps being inefficient. As a medical corps officer, (not Medical Service Corps) I banged my head for years having to deal with the MSC pencil pushers.

    Besides, its hard to be as efficient as the Air Force when you're working out in the desert in tents, rather than in the air-conditioned hospitals. I loved my time with the Air Force hospital.....A/C, they actually issued coffee-makers and microwaves to the officers, and even had a video-rental store set up in Eskan! Still can't figure out why I went Army and not AirForce!!
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

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    Senior Member subroc's Avatar
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    Eric, you have some cogent points based on knowledge and an understanding, dnf777 on the other hand appears to be searching for a conspiracy that doesn't exixt.
    subroc

    Article [I.]
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Article [II.]
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  10. #20
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    Eric, you have some cogent points based on knowledge and an understanding, dnf777 on the other hand appears to be searching for a conspiracy that doesn't exixt.
    Conspiracy? Are your voices telling you that? I just said I worked at an Air Force Hospital. No secret conspiracy about that!
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

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