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Drills for stoping ping ponging

5K views 35 replies 15 participants last post by  vanman 
#1 ·
Could somebody please help me out with some drills or tips for getting a dog to dig back more and stop ping ponging. I am getting very good initial lines for quite a good ways, but once the dogs have several whistles at 200 yards they quite digging back and start yo yo-ing. Please help.
 
#4 ·
are school blinds and pattern blinds the same thing? By "patterns", you think I should have 3 or 4 blinds that the "pile" is in the same spot every time and run these until the dog gets their confidence back.
 
#5 ·
are school blinds and pattern blinds the same thing? By "patterns", you think I should have 3 or 4 blinds that the "pile" is in the same spot every time and run these until the dog gets their confidence back.
In praactical, "yes", they're the same thing. They are pre-identified destinations that are repeated.

This ping pong problem you're having...are you running cold blinds when this happens?

Evan
 
#8 ·
I'd say it would help if you did "help" the dog out as you guys work through this transition phase.

Another tip is to think about following your dog out into the field so you are standing closer to the dog.

I'm also going to put my neck out there and predict that Evan will suggest doing some bird-boy blinds.

FWIW, I'm right there with you.
 
#9 ·
I've got a 7 year old MH that has always been a very nice blind dog and two dogs that are still in transition. I've just seen their attitude decline a little on blinds and they are all ping ponging pretty bad.

Is the best way to teach 3 patterns and then add obstacles?
 
#10 ·
Once my dogs are running cold blinds, I rarely, if ever go back to pattern blinds. If anything, I believe it breaks down their confidence on cold blinds. In my experience the only thing that gains confidence on cold blinds is MORE cold blinds with no corrections and very little handling.

So back to the ping ponging. Are you sure you are not the cause of this?

kris
 
#12 ·
Yes.

You said after several whistles. Why are you having several whistles and how many do you consider several? Does this happen all the time? The more whistles, the more you break the dog down. Maybe after so far out they stop believing you. What is the dog doing that you have to have several whistles?

If you spent an adequate amount of time on your pattern field, I would be reluctant to return to it UNLESS I did it and did some nice over and straight back casts and I'd add some marks or something to it as well.

Kris
 
#13 ·
Wagon wheel to drive the lining concept. For longer distances I will take the WW concept and extend the length but with only three bumpers. To start I run them as a sight blind with a white marker. One may be 60 yards to the left, the one in the middle 150 yds(or the limit of your dog and then 20 yards more) and the last on the right about 90 yards. I run them from the same line.
 
#14 ·
Yes at a distance they breakdown and get more eradic (ping pong) around obstacles and things that make them think (water, haybale, ditch, mound, treee, etc.) I want my dogs to take a slight angle back for 100 yards, not cross the line 6 times.
 
#15 ·
there is a pretty neat drill that I learned this summer from a pro (learned on another forum...)Hopefully this is the correct description.....

You put 3 buckets about 15 feet apart with a pile of bumpers at each bucket...(or don't use buckets, just bumpers)... start close - about 20 yds, line the dog to each bucket...back up ten yards, repeat....continue backing up as the dog succeeds in taking the lines..... Eventually the tightness of the blind locations will require you to handle....this gives you the opportunity to refine the dog's ability to take a cast and hold the line for a longer amount of time...

I was told it is called the one whistle one cast drill.... if you need more than one whistle, then you should move up to the last successful location.....

Juli
 
#16 ·
Juli, I have done that one too. A pro I have worked with has a special set-up in one of his fields for this. The three piles are marked by a small stake with a yellow ribbon. Then the 20, 30, 40 yard lines up to 150 are marked with white spray paint. As you progress you can start where you left off last time and move back. Any problems you just move up a notch or two. But the well measured distances and piles are invaluable. It is a great lining drill. But I am not sure how this would help with ping ponging?
 
#17 · (Edited)
I've used BB (Bird Boy) blinds to work on overcasting.
 
#20 ·
Ok, let me give more history. The female in question is about to turn 3. I have thought about it more and have decided that the best way to put it into words is she needs "discipline at a distance". She lines well and handles well. It's just at a distance (150 - 300 yards) she will start ping ponging after maybe 3 whistles. This is more pronounced around obstacles (jumping a boat, going getween tight gunners, weaving between haybales, etc). When we came out of patterns (6mo. ago) she was lining most patterns and digging back very well. So I started running colds and her yo yoing has gotten worse. I know it's something I'm doing because my MH has started the same thing. The female will take, let's say, a right angle back at 200 yards, take the cast, run for a little ways and veer off to one side or the other.
What I'm getting at is her handling is very nice the first 100 yards, maybe 2-3 whistles, it just deteriorates after that.
 
#22 ·
Ok, let me give more history. The female in question is about to turn 3. I have thought about it more and have decided that the best way to put it into words is she needs "discipline at a distance". She lines well and handles well. It's just at a distance (150 - 300 yards) she will start ping ponging after maybe 3 whistles.
At the problem distances, does she stop well? I ask because I’m getting the impression that your distance problem isn’t so much a discipline issue as it is a momentum issue. This is very common for Transitional dogs. I'm guessing a bit about her still. However, if her momentum is dropping off out there, she probably stops well, but everything else is breaking down exponentially the further away she is. Does that sound right?
This is more pronounced around obstacles (jumping a boat, going between tight gunners, weaving between hay bales, etc).
A dog with inadequate momentum will also tend to show this more, especially at a distance. Distance universally erodes control, but also it erodes momentum.

NOTE: I use the word “momentum” literally. It does not mean speed. It means impetus; the force possessed by a body in motion. It’s the attitude that drives a dog onward when conditions tend to break down their velocity.
When we came out of patterns (6mo. ago) she was lining most patterns and digging back very well. So I started running colds and her yo-yoing has gotten worse. I know it's something I'm doing because my MH has started the same thing.
Actually, I think there is a good chance that what you are doing may be just fine. The problem, I suspect, may be what you are not doing.
The female will take, let's say, a right angle back at 200 yards, take the cast, run for a little ways and veer off to one side or the other.
What I'm getting at is her handling is very nice the first 100 yards, maybe 2-3 whistles, it just deteriorates after that.
And that is symptomatic of a momentum deficit. You can very likely fix this more easily than you may think. I'll wait to hear of my assessment sounds on track. But if it is I have some suggestions to improve this situation dramatically.

Evan
 
#21 ·
I see that as her confidence distance and at that point she starts thinking for herself. Once that starts, I would move up closer when this occurs (after making one attempt to do it right) and have less tolerance on taking the wrong cast and forcing them to get the cast right vs. allowing her to move much further in the wrong direction. I have seen this at varying distances with my females (all diferenct levels of skill) and by walking up closer its kind like going back to basics and not allowing them to start hunting or thinking for themselves.

A quicker whisle may help too but by fine tuning the line with a lot of whisles, you might effect momentum, you'll just need to balance a fine level of control over performance.
 
#23 ·
here's my answers. Her whistle sits are always good (that scares me to say). Her speed actually increases the further out she gets.
This sounds crazy but I hope it makes sense. If I could talk for her I think she'd say,"I'm not sure exactly which direction, but I know one thing, If I don't go, I'm in big doo doo, so yaahooo here I go!
It's like she just gets to a point and forgets she has to go further.
 
#25 · (Edited)
If I do put pressure on her she just gets more eradic and even faster.
But remember, speed and momentum are not the same things. The statement "It's like she just gets to a point and forgets she has to go further." causes me to come back to a momentum deficit. A dog with ample momentum has a different attitude...greater determination to drive.

But I have to rely on how you read your dog. You're the one with her each day.

By the way, one other question I had for you. Have you schooled this dog in No-hands Back?

Evan
 
#26 ·
Atta boy, Evan. That was gonna be my reco. With no hands, they only go BACK. Learn which direction is the 'tendancy' to turn, and position them accordingly. Then with a no-hands-back, the dog will rotate on to the correct line, and drive back.

I'd also 'seed' the blind area, so you aren't looking for a 'pinpoint'.

UB
 
#31 ·
I know I don't fully understand BB blinds, and to be honest have never done them, only because I don't know how. My limited understanding is running a blind like a mark off to the side of a BB. Evan, would you explain BB blinds and gradient blinds.
 
#32 ·
#35 ·
I haven't read the whole thread so someone might have already mentioned it but I had success with a drill I think was called the "split casting drill?" I got it from retriever's online maybe one of Dennis' articles? It can be modified and used for dogs that ping pong or dig straight back. I use it to "freshen up" casting skills sometimes. Anyone else familiar with this??
 
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