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Double Blind philosophy

4K views 18 replies 14 participants last post by  jeff t. 
#1 ·
When in competition and your faced with a double blind, what are you looking at as determining factors when deciding which blind to run first? Do you run the easiest blind first (one with least amount of factors), or run the hardest first and then come back for the perceived easiest?
 
#3 ·
On every double blind I ever ran under judgment the order was determined by the judges. Usually there is a short or shorter one retrieved first, but that isn't always the case. Same general concepts. You train on multiple blinds, don't you?

Evan
 
#4 ·
I was just wondering if there's any unwritten rules to try to live by when running multiple while under judgement. One of the NAHRA senior tests I ran had a double blind and some of the AKC master tests I've seen had them as well, and in these instances the judges never predetermined an order. At the time I just followed suite with the other handlers and ran them in the same order. But while running them in training yesterday I was wondering if there are things I should be looking more closely at before determining an order.
 
#6 ·
Yes, in training use the first blind to set-up the 2nd. It should have some relevance to what concepts you are trying to teach. For ex. if you are tyring to condition a transition dog to cast past a scent area you might start that learning process by having the dog p/u a short blind up-wind of another blind with a relatively close line & longer distance. A training set-up of that type would have the benefit of having the dog know he has already gone to the short blind, yet still provide the scent conditioning that you want to teach as you sent your dog longer down-wind. At a test or trial a judge might use the same factors to influence the dog toward the scent (current AKC rule changes prevent unseen PBs so the test must be constructed to avoid conflict) or if very tight in an AA stake to flare a dog off line. In both cases the idea is to cause the handler to have to handle the dog/demonstrate handling skill & control.
 
G
#7 ·
Darin, in the AKC master tests I've run, it's probably 20-25% have dictated the order and the others have been handler's choice.

When choosing which blind to run first, it depends on both the test and the dog I'm running.

I will almost always run a shorter blind before a longer blind. But sometimes I will choose the blind that's most "out" of the test. Or the blind that's furthest from where they just retrieved their last mark. I will usually try to do the easier of the blinds first and then the more challenging one. So I take all of those things, put them together, consider the dog I'm running and pick the order I'm going to run the blinds.

There's nothing cut and dry.
 
#8 ·
Darin,

In the tests that I ran last year, I usually allowed the dog to make the decision for me. If I saw Katie really pulling to a variable I would work that out of the equation right away. Sometimes you can see a blind that is a gimme. These are usually the ones that I would run last. Take the challenge first and let the chips fall where they may.

Like state before, if they have a blind setup underneath one of the marks try to clear that from dogs mind before running that blind. Just think about the variables and understand what your dog will want to do.
 
#9 ·
I try to determine which is "easier" and get it first. Reason is to not have a dog with a lot of "attitude" or low moral for a lot of stops and starts going into the second or more difficult blind. If I can get the first in 2 -3 whistles and the dog is feeling good, then we have a good shot of doing a good job on the second as well.
 
#10 · (Edited)
The Double blind that Darin is talking about for the NAHRA test was as follows

Scenerio is that you are walking in along a marsh when when the place erupts two birds out in front at about 10:30 and 12, both about 80-100 yards (dontremmeber exactly but they were towards teh outer limit) then a pause and a bird at 7:00 with a couple shots from the line. Pick up the triple then there is a land blind at about 6 cutting the edge of the marsh (in and out of the bowl on the side slope with heavy cover) then across some light cover to a field "road"/path across it between a couple trees tight against a back drop of brush. The water blind was at about 3:00 down the bank of the marsh through some HEAVY cover and REALLY HARD going muck, it ended with some lunging water to a point that was deep of a nother point running parralell on either side of a 10 foot channel. Alot of the dogs as I remember got to the point that stuck out a little farther and REALLY wanted out of the "stuff" they were in. ( not gonna call it water) There wee a few that had trouble getting back acroos to the other point.

Most all of us took the land blind first. it was tight to the go bird, but the "factor" was the bank which was pretty close to the line. Some of the dogs did not want to push across the "road" but most did pretty well.

The water blind was very much not influenced ( at least I didn't think so) by the other birds, but it was tough going for the dogs, and at the end of the blind they were wanting out of the marsh BAD.

Darin actually has a good pic of my dog going through the "stuff" on the way to the water memory bird that we ran in the same marsh.;-)
 
#13 ·
The water blind was at about 3:00 down the bank of the marsh through some HEAVY cover and REALLY HARD going muck, it ended with some lunging water to a point that was deep of a nother point running parralell on either side of a 10 foot channel. Alot of the dogs as I remember got to the point that stuck out a little farther and REALLY wanted out of the "stuff" they were in. ( not gonna call it water) There wee a few that had trouble getting back acroos to the other point.
I agree with mostlygold, what were they thinking, or were they thinking?
In HT normally the order double blinds are picked up is decided by the handler. In FT the judges normally decide the order.
 
#11 ·
Wouldn't want to put an older dog through that crap. What were the judges thinking??

regards
dawn
 
#15 ·
Darin,

I will seldom dictate the order when I am judging a double blind. One of my favorite scenarios that I have used about three times in the past 9-10 master assignments is to have a one blind on land and another on water, but the line to both blinds are very close to each other, perhaps seperated by 10 to 15 degrees. The blinds have a loing entry to water, perhaps as much as 50 yards or better, so lots of time for a dog to make a decision, or for the handler to make a correction in the dog's initial line. The land blind staying on land all the way, but perhaps getting within 10 feet or so of the bank, the water blind being tight to shore or in a channel. The decision is for the handler to decide, however I make them tell me which way they are going before they ship the dog. In my mind there are a number of different dogs and the handler must know what their dog will do and make a decision on what they want to do. Perhaps they have a really watery dog so they want to run the water first and get it out of the way and go into the land blind with some momentum, then again, if they put that watery dog in the water might they have more trouble keeping them out of it when they run the land blind? Perhaps they have a dog that doesn't like the water, so do they push them into the water and get it done with and hope they look spectacular on land with a stronger blind there as their dog likes to stay dry, or do they run the land first and again build up some momentum? Then again, if they run the land first with a dog that already avoids the water, do they teach the dog to stay dry? I have had some hanlders wait to tell me until they have the dog on the line, which I allow. They look at the dog and if the dog looks to water and in the handler's mind tell them they have a good idea they need to get wet, then the handler will take water first. If the dog looks to shy away from the water, they elect to take land first.

Like I said, it takes a handler to know the dog they are handling and what is going to give them the best results.

Gordie

I have set some tests where I have dictated the order, and on one test we had a short blind that was upwind of a long blind. The scenario was we had shot two birds and the closer one fell dead but the longer bird had caught the wind and we made a poor shot and it came down a runner. We wanted that long bird picked up first as we knew where it had landed and wanted our dog to get there as quickly as possible so it could to have the freshest trail possible in case it had ran gone far. Of course the dog had to get past of the short upwind bird. Much to our elation the bird had landed in heavy cover, burrowed in and the dog would make an exceptional blind retrieve. This was a lnad-water series and the dogs had to cross a creek up front so we had no other way to get to those two birds without hitching up our drawers and getting wet, thus the requirement to use a dog on a blind retrieve in our hunting scenario.
 
#18 ·
"maybe this is why AKC still prevails"

These grounds are WELL used FT grounds and it hosts multiple AKC FT's a year...so I'm not sure I'd use this blind as a reason why AKC "prevails". ;-) But that's neither here nor there in regards to the topic.

Thanks everyone for their insight/thoughts!
 
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