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Thread: Wow, just wow...

  1. #11
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    This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that he was talking about when I watched last night. Our soldiers are not able to do their job because they are afraid of getting in trouble with the government. He spoke at length on rules of engagement and how the rules that we place on ourselves have cost us numerous American lives in combat. At one point, he said something to the effect of 'Political correctness has no place in war'. *disclaimer*-Not a direct quote-I don't remember exactly what he said...

    Anyway, I couldn't find it on youtube, but here is a link to the c span video. I thoroughly enjoyed watching him speak yesterday, if you watch this, I hope you do as well.

    http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/291300-2

  2. #12
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=dnf777;565731]Requesting and receiving an Article 32 was a brilliant legal maneuver. Especially in a military environment, where his actions would be deemed heroic and "no big deal". While it preserved his political career, an innocent adjudication by a court martial would be the best way to clear one's name if innocent. Since he openly admitted the charges, and was given a slap on the wrist by the A-32 judge, he may move on politically, answering only to the court of public opinion. Given Oliver North and Gordon Liddy's experience, I suspect he will be just fine. Probably have his own talk show in a few years.

    BTW, not that it matters, but was the Iraqi police officer who was beaten an enemy sympathizer, or an innocent man trying to restore and uphold the law in his homeland in arguably the most dangerous job in the world?[/QUOT

    Or get elected President...Obama admitted snorting coke or doing heroin or some such nonsense and it did not seem to matter to his voters...
    Bill Davis

  3. #13
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=huntinman;565932]
    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    Requesting and receiving an Article 32 was a brilliant legal maneuver. Especially in a military environment, where his actions would be deemed heroic and "no big deal". While it preserved his political career, an innocent adjudication by a court martial would be the best way to clear one's name if innocent. Since he openly admitted the charges, and was given a slap on the wrist by the A-32 judge, he may move on politically, answering only to the court of public opinion. Given Oliver North and Gordon Liddy's experience, I suspect he will be just fine. Probably have his own talk show in a few years.

    BTW, not that it matters, but was the Iraqi police officer who was beaten an enemy sympathizer, or an innocent man trying to restore and uphold the law in his homeland in arguably the most dangerous job in the world?[/QUOT

    Or get elected President...Obama admitted snorting coke or doing heroin or some such nonsense and it did not seem to matter to his voters...
    I think you're confused with George Bush, who used cocaine, was an alcoholic, and at least one DUI charged to him, and possibly others thrown out because of his father's influence. Is that what you meant? I'm not sure how any of this relates to UCMJ violations, anyway.
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  4. #14
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    There's a little mis-understanding here about the way the Uniform Code of Military Justice works.

    Article 32 covers pre-trial investigations. It is not a courts martial by any means. While many times there will be an Article 32 proceeding (defense may waive it for example) , it is required if the charges are likely to become a General Court. However, Article 32 covers only the investigation phase. The courts martial is a whole separate issue. Here's a quote from the discussion in the Art 32 section of the "Manual for Courts Martial".

    >The primary purpose of the investigation required by Article 32 and this rule is to inquire into the truth of the matters set forth in the charges, the form of the charges, and to secure information on which to determine what disposition should be made of the case.
    The investigation also serves as a means of discovery. The function of the investigation is to ascertain and impartially weigh all available facts in arriving at conclusions and recommendations, not to perfect a case against the accused. The investigation should
    be limited to the issues raised by the charges and necessary to proper disposition of the case. The investigation is not limited to examination of the witnesses and evidence mentioned in the accompanying allied papers. See subsection (e) of this rule. Recommendations of the investigating officer are advisory.

    The Article 32 process is fairly structured but it is somewhat informal. The investigating officer must be equal or higher in rank than the accused but need not be an attorney. Upon it's conclusion, the investigating officer then makes his (her) recommendation to the convening authority who makes the decision on how to proceed.

    IOW, LtCol West didn't request an Article 32 investigation. It was required. Likewise, LtCol West wasn't found guilty by an Article 32 "trial". It is likely that the Art 32 officer reported sufficient grounds that the convening authority would have been forced to call a General or a Special Courts-Martial. Instead he elected to offer Lt. Col. West Article 15 non-judicial punishment and this was accepted.

    Eric

  5. #15
    Senior Member Leddyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post

    I think you're confused with George Bush, who used cocaine, was an alcoholic, and at least one DUI charged to him, and possibly others thrown out because of his father's influence. Is that what you meant? I'm not sure how any of this relates to UCMJ violations, anyway.
    You know good and well that the Kenyan admitted to drug use and possibly to dealing. Where is your proof that Bush used cocaine? As I recall (actually I looked it up) it was widely speculated by the left wing media (that explains why you believe it) but it was never addressed by Bush as it was beneath contempt.

    Bush acknowledges his DUI arrest in 1976 when he was 30. He paid a fine of 150.00 and had his license suspended. How is that getting DUI's fixed? Have you never gotten behind the wheel while intoxicated?

    You recklessly throw out accusations. Bush said that when his father took office in 1988 and required that all of his cabinet members affirm that they had done no drugs for 15 years that he could have passed that test. That is the only public statement that he made. Bush also stated that while he drank too much on occasion, he was not an alcoholic. I don't think you are qualified to refute that.

    You should be ashamed of yourself for accusing him of cocaine use. The Kenyan has openly admitted his use of hard drugs. Those are the facts. Actually the Kenyan's use of drugs is the least of the things about him that trouble me. His continued policies are killing the economy, that scares me more.
    Last edited by Leddyman; 02-12-2010 at 03:28 PM.
    Terry Moseley
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  6. #16
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    [quote=Leddyman;566010]
    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post

    You know good and well that the Kenyan admitted to drug use and possibly to dealing.
    When did he admit to dealing? He admitted to smoking grass and doing some cocaine when he could afford it. He also says he never did heroin. Personally, I smoked a lot of grass and hash, and did a little acid and mescalin the few times I could afford them. I would have tried cocaine had I been able to afford it (never could) in my drug experimenting days. The last time I did any illegal drugs of any kind was in 1973, a few months after finishing grad school. I'm not sure I ever met anyone in college who had not done any drugs at all. If such a person existed, I suspect they would have preferred to admit being virgins. Even the young republicans passed the joint around during meetings.

  7. #17
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Sorry Leddy, I got Bush confused with Cheney. It was Cheney who has two DUIs! (and five deferrments....or is it seven--hard to keep track!) But I'm not the only one factually inaccurate here. Just the only one who corrects it!
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  8. #18
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leddyman View Post
    ...
    You recklessly throw out accusations. Bush said that when his father took office in 1988 and required that all of his cabinet members affirm that they had done no drugs for 15 years that he could have passed that test. That is the only public statement that he made. Bush also stated that while he drank too much on occasion, he was not an alcoholic. I don't think you are qualified to refute that.

    ...
    Actually, that is not quite all that Bush said. In a series of conversations with Doug Wead, Bush certainly left the impression that he may well have used marijuana or cocaine but that he would never admit that publicly since it might encourage kids to do the same. He criticized those, such as Gore, who admitted their use for that reason.

    The New York Times reported:

    "Mr. Bush, who has acknowledged a drinking problem years ago, told Mr. Wead on the tapes that he could withstand scrutiny of his past. He said it involved nothing more than "just, you know, wild behavior." He worried, though, that allegations of cocaine use would surface in the campaign, and he blamed his opponents for stirring rumors. "If nobody shows up, there's no story," he told Mr. Wead, "and if somebody shows up, it is going to be made up." But when Mr. Wead said that Mr. Bush had in the past publicly denied using cocaine, Mr. Bush replied, "I haven't denied anything."

    He refused to answer reporters' questions about his past behavior, he said, even though it might cost him the election. Defending his approach, Mr. Bush said: "I wouldn't answer the marijuana questions. You know why? Because I don't want some little kid doing what I tried."

    He mocked Vice President Al Gore for acknowledging marijuana use. "Baby boomers have got to grow up and say, yeah, I may have done drugs, but instead of admitting it, say to kids, don't do them," he said."

    (see http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/po...talk.html?_r=1)

  9. #19
    Senior Member Leddyman's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=YardleyLabs;566025]
    Quote Originally Posted by Leddyman View Post
    When did he admit to dealing? He admitted to smoking grass and doing some cocaine when he could afford it. He also says he never did heroin. Personally, I smoked a lot of grass and hash, and did a little acid and mescalin the few times I could afford them. I would have tried cocaine had I been able to afford it (never could) in my drug experimenting days. The last time I did any illegal drugs of any kind was in 1973, a few months after finishing grad school. I'm not sure I ever met anyone in college who had not done any drugs at all. If such a person existed, I suspect they would have preferred to admit being virgins. Even the young republicans passed the joint around during meetings.
    O.K. I retract the dealing part. It was implied by Hillary's campaign. The rest of my statement I maintain.

    The accusations of cocaine use by Bush merely illustrate the weakness of his argument.
    Last edited by Leddyman; 02-12-2010 at 06:21 PM.
    Terry Moseley
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Pals's Avatar
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    Au contraire Jeff- I went to a big ten school here in the heartland and never touched any drugs-let alone a cigarette-during my entire college career. Drank a bit my first semester and never drank again. Even to this day. I'm not that much younger than you either. The only reason the politicos admit to drug use is that someone would eventually rat them out. Anyway- interesting man LtCol.West. Don't think any of us here can judge what happened during his service to our country. I'll take him over damn near all the poopitians currently in office and the chicago thugs running the show now.

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