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Thread: How Labradors are Supposed to Look? (pics)

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsc View Post
    We are dealing with a closed genetic system....I'm not sure where the genes are going to come from to "improve" the breed.
    Yes it is a closed genetic system, but K-9s and mammals have a large capacity for mutation of DNA. The selective breeding and resulting diversity of K-9s is really remarkable. I don't know of another species that has such capacity for change. Humans have bred the wolf to become the Chihuahua, Great Dane, hairless, long hair, wrinkled, short, tall.

    http://www.canine-genetics.com/Mutation.htm
    What its prominence suggest, and what all science confirms is that the dog is a creature of the nose- A. Horowitz.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by afdahl View Post
    Just to make a connection, Super Chief's two grandsires are in the photo David posted; his dam's sire (Cherokee Buck) is second from left; his sire's sire (Freehaven Muscles) at the right.

    Amy Dahl
    I think that's the key. Super Chief had nice conformation and you look back in his pedigree and realize it wasn't an accident. The problem is that there is no connection to bench dogs today. They went their separate way with the intro of English bench stock, performance be damned. Now we have bench dogs that lack the conformation to perform in the field without even considering required desire, intelligence, style or size. In addition I hear that hip dysplasia is common among bench stock as well as other genetic conditions that would further disqualify them in the field.

    I think the answer, in light of LRC inaction, is to set-up conformation competions among field dogs in some way so that there is a means to recognize excellent conformation among field dogs. At least in that way we can preserve the "look" of a Freehaven Muscles, his brothers and offspring like Super Chief. Maybe this could be done in conjunction with FTs at the club level.
    David Didier, GA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Losthwy View Post
    Yes it is a closed genetic system, but K-9s and mammals have a large capacity for mutation of DNA. The selective breeding and resulting diversity of K-9s is really remarkable. I don't know of another species that has such capacity for change. Humans have bred the wolf to become the Chihuahua, Great Dane, hairless, long hair, wrinkled, short, tall.

    http://www.canine-genetics.com/Mutation.htm
    That is true, but you don't/can't breed for mutation. As we move from the deep pool (read wolf) to the shallow pool (read individual breeds) the genes available deminish. With out going to outcrosses, it is not possible to go from the chihuahua back to the wolf.

    Part of the problem is the definition of "improvement". I will grant that you can breed to improve a line or group of dogs, to correct a fault, but does that improve the breed? The answer is difficult and has brought us where we are today. Are the number of great dogs increasing proportionally? Are we any better able to predict the out come of a litter?

    Looking at the old photo's of the dogs of the 'day', it apprears as we continue to work on function, the 'forms' from these early dogs continue to appear. When we abandon function to chase form, we tend to loose both the form that worked and the function it served.

    Yes, this is more of a rambling for thought than a definitive piece of fact. For what it is worth.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    I think that's the key. Super Chief had nice conformation and you look back in his pedigree and realize it wasn't an accident. The problem is that there is no connection to bench dogs today. They went their separate way with the intro of English bench stock, performance be damned. Now we have bench dogs that lack the conformation to perform in the field without even considering required desire, intelligence, style or size. In addition I hear that hip dysplasia is common among bench stock as well as other genetic conditions that would further disqualify them in the field.

    I think the answer, in light of LRC inaction, is to set-up conformation competions among field dogs in some way so that there is a means to recognize excellent conformation among field dogs. At least in that way we can preserve the "look" of a Freehaven Muscles, his brothers and offspring like Super Chief. Maybe this could be done in conjunction with FTs at the club level.
    Isn't that what the LRC Conformation Certificate program is all about?

    JD
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post

    I think the answer, in light of LRC inaction, is to set-up conformation competions among field dogs in some way so that there is a means to recognize excellent conformation among field dogs. At least in that way we can preserve the "look" of a Freehaven Muscles, his brothers and offspring like Super Chief. Maybe this could be done in conjunction with FTs at the club level.
    Excellent idea!! Working retriever folks should get together and work to maintain the type (conformation) and character traits of their respective breeds. You cannot leave it to people who have no idea what a working dog has to do in the field/blind all day. Maybe you could include a written critique like IABCA and take a picture for future reference. Some German clubs actually take measurements (chest, height, length etc.) for future reference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gsc View Post
    ...Looking at the old photo's of the dogs of the 'day', it appears as we continue to work on function, the 'forms' from these early dogs continue to appear. When we abandon function to chase form, we tend to loose both the form that worked and the function it served....
    What a great statement, frames the issue very well......
    David Didier, GA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Losthwy View Post
    Yes it is a closed genetic system, but K-9s and mammals have a large capacity for mutation of DNA. The selective breeding and resulting diversity of K-9s is really remarkable. I don't know of another species that has such capacity for change. Humans have bred the wolf to become the Chihuahua, Great Dane, hairless, long hair, wrinkled, short, tall.

    http://www.canine-genetics.com/Mutation.htm
    I don't believe you can support this statement with actual examples. What you are claiming is that spontaneous introduction of new DNA (which is the definition of a mutation) that is not harmful to the organism occurs relatively frequently. It is up to the one claiming such a thing it to provide examples of this spontaneous genetic mutation.

    All of the differences in the breed can be attributed to DNA, that is already present in the animal, being expressed because of intelligent selection by man (or not so intelligent as the case may be).
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    I totaly understand what you guys are talking about when it comes to all show and no go but and thats a big but. In the standards of a lab I have'nt found a speed limit a dog has to be able to run in any standard. everyone says well the the show dogs can be trained but are slower on the field. I never new it was a race ( though i like a dog with some go!) straight lines, form, handling, marks, blinds but no radar gun. This is a perfect example of why and how both ft dogs and show dogs have changed and evolved over the years. we've just bread them in a direction WE think they should be. fast is nice but not necessarily better. i dont like fat dogs i also dont like black greyhounds some of you call labs either. some people like yellows some like chocolate some like blacks. well some like skinny scrawny greyhounds (labs) others like fat over weight ones. I personally like a dog around 75-85lbs with a semi stocky build. you can see my 9month old in my avatar. just my .02cents and i know it dont mean much.
    if you cant beat them do it yourself



    sire: jake featherstorm saukriver labs
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDogger View Post
    Isn't that what the LRC Conformation Certificate program is all about?

    JD
    Not really, a conformation cert is not a competition. It has merit by saying a dog has reasonable conformation but today it is too heavily influenced by the bench type as meeting the std, I think we need a fresh dose of history, looking back at our last dual champs and say that's the conformation we want to preserve.
    David Didier, GA

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by muddin View Post
    I totaly understand what you guys are talking about when it comes to all show and no go but and thats a big but. In the standards of a lab I have'nt found a speed limit a dog has to be able to run in any standard. everyone says well the the show dogs can be trained but are slower on the field. I never new it was a race ( though i like a dog with some go!) straight lines, form, handling, marks, blinds but no radar gun. This is a perfect example of why and how both ft dogs and show dogs have changed and evolved over the years. we've just bread them in a direction WE think they should be. fast is nice but not necessarily better. i dont like fat dogs i also dont like black greyhounds some of you call labs either. some people like yellows some like chocolate some like blacks. well some like skinny scrawny greyhounds (labs) others like fat over weight ones. I personally like a dog around 75-85lbs with a semi stocky build. you can see my 9month old in my avatar. just my .02cents and i know it dont mean much.
    I don't think anyone referred to "fast" as THE desired criteria. I think we want dogs that can do the work as a first priority and then have correct form too. Today's bench stock could not possibly do the work, even if in field shape. They likely could not hold up under the stress of daily FT training and we have no idea if they have the desire, intelligence, tractability, and style would be a long shot for sure.
    David Didier, GA

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