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Thread: Common Ground?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I have seen very little to suggest that illegals are entering our country in droves hoping for welfare. Employers like illegals because they work hard at work few Americans are willing to do and complain little. Generally speaking, those coming here are coming to earn money to send home. That is why they leave when jobs dry up. I think dback's comment underscores what is already known by those who promise to build border walls instead of going after employers. As a former employer of many non-Americans, we employed aliens because they worked well and were happy to do things that Americans rejected such as moving all over the country with almost no notice.
    We apparently travel in different circles - in E WA the illegals would send their pay home & hit the welfare offices. Mexico would have a huge balance of payments issue without the Mexican citizens that are in this country sending money back to Mexico.

    As for people not wanting to move, you must have had an interesting group of employees.

    As for people not wanting to work, possibly conditions waiting for a handout have become to lucrative .

    It did not cost us less to hire aliens, it cost us more to comply with Labor Department requirements. In addition, we spent 10's of thousands per year in legal fees to try to comply with all legal requirements. However, INS made it hard to comply, not easy. Processing delays were often measured in years so that people would go out of status despite doing everything appropriately. Under the law at the time, we could continue employing them but they could not take a job with another employer. If we laid someone off who was out of status, we had to fly them back to their home country.
    When I contract mined, quite successfully, the other 5 people on our crew were Mexican, 3 legals & 2 with cards so they were legal just not citizens. It worked quite well that way. When I went back to that company in a management position it became obvious to me that unless something changed there would be no way we would attract a sufficiently energized work force to continue operating as we did. Again, I say, it has become to attractive for US citizens not to work.

    So I went to the big kite factory, working as an engineer & eventually a lead. Through 3 layoffs I saw Americans RIFFED because they were more expensive than someone who could go through the motions but obviously with less talent. Over time this creates a serious brain drain. When the government shut down military procurement in the late 60"s over a million engineers were without employment. Some were that way because they did not see the HWOTW & had allowed their skills to deteriorate but there were those who had not but were SOL.

    So, I saw something different than you & will reiterate, "It is much to easy to be without employment"

    Eventually, we hit a point where the incremental cost of hiring an alien was 20-30% more than hiring an American but Americans would not do the work that needed to be done even at higher salaries. Accordingly, we simply stopped pursuing those types of jobs and cut our workforce by 80% Those jobs ended up being outsourced to other countries instead. America lost, India gained. Our average salary at that time was approximately $90,000 per year and we eliminated 80 jobs when we stopped accepting work requiring staff relocation.
    At the big kite factory it was within your right to turn down an assignment, these were looked upon as opportunities, which if refused were serious considerations when advancement opportunities arose. One of my sons presently has a small construction company, He generally uses South Americans (Mexicans are not the only people looking for opportunities) as they do not ususally arrive with baggage.

    Quote Originally Posted by M&K's Retrievers View Post
    I couldn't agree more (imagine that). A friend and client of mine has a concrete construction company. Except for his foremen, he hired almost exclusively illegal aliens because they were the only ones who would do the work for reasonable pay. As long as they provided a SS card, they were hired. As soon as the SS office notified him of a duplicate number and he confronted the employee, they were gone. He said it was almost impossible to find legals who would or could do the manual labor the job required even at twice the price. Many prospective employees would rather stay on unemployment than work that hard. Oklahoma has recently passed legislation cracking down on employers who were hiring illegals. This has forced him to use smaller crews at higher wages and higher Workers Comp premiums all of which are passed on to the consumer.
    He and I have had many disagreements over cold ones about this problem and he is a die hard DEM. I always tell him he is a convenient liberal.
    I'm not sure what exactly Oklahoma is doing but it sure put the fear of God in employers and apparently the law is doing as intended.
    When the unions, many years ago, got the child labor laws passed, everyone thought that to be a victory. People of my generation still have fond memories of picking various fruits & vegetables, that's why we are a hard working, generally, group of people. It's hard to appreciate hard work when your day has been spent navigating the controls of a Game Boy, an IPOD or twittering away.

    But what has happend in some industries is mechanization - the only issue being many of those originally employed do not have the skills to get into that line of work. I believe that to be the individuals fault.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    ...

    So, I saw something different than you & will reiterate, "It is much to easy to be without employment"
    ...
    At lower income levels, you may well be right. For example, a person earning $10/hour will still receive the equivalent of almost $7/hour on unemployment if they have worked long enough at their job. However, for someone earning $90,000/year on their job, unemployment is not much of an option since it would provide only about 10-15% of the amount they had been earning.

    When it comes to illegal aliens, however, payment of unemployment benefits is illegal. According to the US DoL, "Section 3304(a)(14) of the Federal Unemployment Tax Act (FUTA) requires SESAs to take certain actions regarding aliens filing claims for unemployment compensation. The intent of these laws is, in brief, to prohibit paying unemployment compensation to an alien whose wage credits are based on services performed while the alien was not legally entitled to employment within the United States." [http://www.ows.doleta.gov/dmstree/ui.../uipl_0683.htm] Many right wing blogs quote a 2006 FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants to show that a large percentage of unemployment benefits go to illegals. Unfortunately, the report is fictitious. No such report appears to have ever been issued.

  3. #23
    Senior Member subroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    ...When it comes to illegal aliens, however, payment of unemployment benefits is illegal...
    ?????????????
    subroc

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    Article [II.]
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  4. #24
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    ?????????????
    ??????????????????

  5. #25
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    let me walk you through it Jeff.

    I believe that just the fact that someone is an “illegal” alien illustrates that they do not obey our laws anyway. I expect that taking unemployment benefits wouldn’t seem all that illegal to them at all.
    subroc

    Article [I.]
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Article [II.]
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  6. #26
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    let me walk you through it Jeff.

    I believe that just the fact that someone is an “illegal” alien illustrates that they do not obey our laws anyway. I expect that taking unemployment benefits wouldn’t seem all that illegal to them at all.
    DoL rules require verification of the legality of all work done that contributes to the individual's eligibility for UI. Thus, even if an employer paid in premiums for a person that was working illegally, they would not be eligible for benefits until the state agency had verified that they were in the country legally and that the benefits were earned for work done under a valid visa. The problem of illegal aliens is normally that employers make no real effort to verify work status. It is not that workers are presenting forged documents that withstand inspection. If an individual has forged an identity so thoroughly that it withstands investigation, then nothing else that you do for enforcement is going to make a difference.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I believe that the only effective way to prevent illegal immigration is to prevent illegals from being employed. If that happened, illegal immigration would dry up overnight. All other strategies are nothing but political window dressing. The reality is that denial of employment fails because the illegal workers are vital to the businesses they work in and those businesses are vital to our communities. Given that, in my opinion, our options are simple: develop an immigration reform package that meets the needs of our businesses, develop a program of employment based enforcement (e.g., imprisonment of employers/managers that hire illegals in the absence of proof of an effective program to determine status before and uring employment), or learn to live with the consequences of doing nothing.
    Dead solid perfect. Building fences is a monument to stupidity (but quite an economic boost for Mexican ladder makers). Deporting 12 million + illegals is a pipe dream...a logistical and expensive cluster**** that is a political impossibility (btw, Operation Wetback deported only 1 million). Hell, as a country we can't even stomach holding a few hundred murdering scum in Gitmo...what do you think will happen when people start seeing honest and hard working families hauled out of their jobs and schools in plastic cuffs by the Border Patrol?!? The ONLY way to get them home and stop them from coming in the first place is to make it so they can't work.

    I've know many Hispanic immigrants, legal and otherwise, and nearly every last one of them was a hard working, honest, salt-of-the-earth person.
    Last edited by Hew; 03-07-2010 at 05:20 AM.
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    in order for a person to receive medicaid funded mental health services in ID they have to receive a couple of health referrals and stuff from the doc, but the best part is all that stuff is entered into a database and can be checked for legitamacy by the provider. it would be great if there were a database for employers with legal citizens tied to ssn that employers had to access in order to employ. it would have to be extremely secure and not give ssn's but somehow be able to validate somebody's citizenship. that way, if someone is found to be working illegally, the employer has no leg to stand on and is easily held accountable.
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    Last edited by precisionlabradors; 04-26-2011 at 03:49 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by precisionlabradors View Post
    in order for a person to receive medicaid funded mental health services in ID they have to receive a couple of health referrals and stuff from the doc, but the best part is all that stuff is entered into a database and can be checked for legitamacy by the provider. it would be great if there were a database for employers with legal citizens tied to ssn that employers had to access in order to employ. it would have to be extremely secure and not give ssn's but somehow be able to validate somebody's citizenship. that way, if someone is found to be working illegally, the employer has no leg to stand on and is easily held accountable.
    The E-Verify system provides an on-line system for employers to verify consistency of names and social security numbers. The I-9 process requires employers to physically verify ID, citizenship, SSN and visa documentation. However, this process is not supported by any on-line tools and it is very costly to verify how well employers have met their responsibilities. It seems to me that visa verification should be possible on-line. The difficulty is with citizenship verification since there is no equivalent to a national ID in the US. That is, as a citizen, there is no uniform standard that defines or documents citizenship for all citizens. The Real ID act attempts to define national standards for driver licenses that makes these the equivalent of National ID's. However, not all states are in compliance and no one is required to obtain a license. Both conservative and liberal groups have resisted the creation of national ID's as government over-reaching. What do people on this forum think about mandatory national ID's?

  10. #30
    Senior Member precisionlabradors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    The E-Verify system provides an on-line system for employers to verify consistency of names and social security numbers. The I-9 process requires employers to physically verify ID, citizenship, SSN and visa documentation. However, this process is not supported by any on-line tools and it is very costly to verify how well employers have met their responsibilities. It seems to me that visa verification should be possible on-line. The difficulty is with citizenship verification since there is no equivalent to a national ID in the US. That is, as a citizen, there is no uniform standard that defines or documents citizenship for all citizens. The Real ID act attempts to define national standards for driver licenses that makes these the equivalent of National ID's. However, not all states are in compliance and no one is required to obtain a license. Both conservative and liberal groups have resisted the creation of national ID's as government over-reaching. What do people on this forum think about mandatory national ID's?
    it would have its pros and cons. i don't think a lot of americans are into being "tracked" per se, even though we already have ssn's and have to use them to sign up for practically anything.
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    Last edited by precisionlabradors; 04-26-2011 at 03:49 PM.

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