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  1. #31
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    The issue is that a teacher (including a coach) is in an authoritative position and by leading a group prayer or calling for it to be done as part of an official school function is effectively saying "This is something I expect you to do." By way of example, look at the reaction to the NJ school that had kids singing a song about Obama, the first black President, as part of a school function celebrating black achievements during Black History Month (ignore whether or not you believe there should be such an official designation). Members of this forum compared that event to the indoctrination of the Hitler Youth in Germany. What is the purpose of group prayer other than to coerce group belief. Does anyone seriously believe that God won't hear their prayer unless others join in? Students are free to pray on their own or together under current law. Teachers are free to pray on their own or to be part of a student led prayer, but they may not call for the prayer or lead it. With all the laws and court cases that have transpired since my days in fifth grade, the latitude that remains is still abused and violated on a regular basis. I would hate to see it extended further.
    So.....you are equating Obama to God?

    Unbeleivable!!



    rk
    Last edited by road kill; 03-16-2010 at 07:11 AM.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    So.....you are equating Obama to God?

    Unbeleivable!!



    rk
    No, I am equating proselytizing to proselytizing. There are actually no legal restrictions on proselytizing to promote a person, so the Obama situation is more defensible legally than the teacher leading a prayer.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    So.....you are equating Obama to God?

    Unbeleivable!!



    rk
    Are you equating singing a song as part of a school function celebrating black achievements during Black History Month, with prayer?

    Unbelievable!!
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Leddyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    The issue is that a teacher (including a coach) is in an authoritative position and by leading a group prayer or calling for it to be done as part of an official school function is effectively saying "This is something I expect you to do." By way of example, look at the reaction to the NJ school that had kids singing a song about Obama, the first black President, as part of a school function celebrating black achievements during Black History Month (ignore whether or not you believe there should be such an official designation). Members of this forum compared that event to the indoctrination of the Hitler Youth in Germany. What is the purpose of group prayer other than to coerce group belief. Does anyone seriously believe that God won't hear their prayer unless others join in? Students are free to pray on their own or together under current law. Teachers are free to pray on their own or to be part of a student led prayer, but they may not call for the prayer or lead it. With all the laws and court cases that have transpired since my days in fifth grade, the latitude that remains is still abused and violated on a regular basis. I would hate to see it extended further.

    Students are free not to pray, to walk away, or not to show up.
    Unfortunately they don't have the same freedom when it comes to Al Gore's religious mother earth propaganda.

    You are confusing the coach with congress. The constitution says congress shall make no law. The coach is not making a law he is leading a prayer. If the standard were applied equally which is what the constitution requires, students would not be forced to watch Al Gores religious propaganda film. Students who are made uncomfortable by sex talks in grammar schools would be exempted. You simply want to suppress religious expression because you disagree with it. The current state of affairs is a corruption of the constitution and would sicken the men who wrote it. You happen to have activist judges legislating from the bench who hold the same humanist views as you giving you cover. Plessy v. Ferguson I believe shows how right the courts always are. Good old Dewey had it right. Get control of the courts, the media, and the universities and we will take over society. He was a communist by the way not a Deist, and an educator. Dewey Decimal System for those of you not familiar.
    You are seeing the fruition of the plan. It isn't a new plan, Caesar was worshipped as a god. Bow down before your government and worship the earth goddess. God must be removed. You are doing to our theoretical coach the same thing China wants to do to the Dali Llama.

    Opiate of the masses regards,
    Bad Motor Scooter SH

    He that tooteth not his own horn...The same shall not be tooted.

    There could be 5 or 6 ninjas in this room right now.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leddyman View Post
    The current state of affairs is a corruption of the constitution and would sicken the men who wrote it.
    I find it interesting how many claim to know how the writers of the constitution would feel today. My guess is, you would have a hard time getting a consensus.

    My parents had a simple solution to the school prayer thing. Then sent us to Catholic School.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Leddyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    I find it interesting how many claim to know how the writers of the constitution would feel today. My guess is, you would have a hard time getting a consensus.

    My parents had a simple solution to the school prayer thing. Then sent us to Catholic School.
    Read what they wrote. They believed in morality and personal responsibility.

    The schools have certainly improved under the current model of morality.
    Bad Motor Scooter SH

    He that tooteth not his own horn...The same shall not be tooted.

    There could be 5 or 6 ninjas in this room right now.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    No, I am equating proselytizing to proselytizing. There are actually no legal restrictions on proselytizing to promote a person, so the Obama situation is more defensible legally than the teacher leading a prayer.
    To a muslim, jew, or atheist, wouldn't Jesus just be considered another person and not God? If so, why would they be offended if the coach is just 'promoting a person' in their eyes? How can you be offended by something that you don't believe even exists?

    Just a little food for thought...

  8. #38
    Senior Member Koolaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducknwork View Post
    To a muslim, jew, or atheist, wouldn't Jesus just be considered another person and not God? If so, why would they be offended if the coach is just 'promoting a person' in their eyes? How can you be offended by something that you don't believe even exists?

    Just a little food for thought...
    I'm not saying you would be offended, but in all honesty how would you feel if it was a prayer involving Muhammad.
    I've been in the situation many times personally and I deal well with it. While people are doing something like praying or saying grace I zone out and just stare off into space. It's no big deal to me. The thing is you're dealing with children. Being excluded or being singled out is a whole lot different to a child than a grown man.

  9. #39
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Are you equating singing a song as part of a school function celebrating black achievements during Black History Month, with prayer?

    Unbelievable!!
    How incredibly CLEVER!!
    Did YOU think that up all by your self?
    That is a great comeback!!
    I wish I would have thought of that, oh....wait....I did!!


    Plagerist!!



    rk
    Stan b & Elvis

  10. #40
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leddyman View Post
    Students are free not to pray, to walk away, or not to show up.
    Unfortunately they don't have the same freedom when it comes to Al Gore's religious mother earth propaganda.

    You are confusing the coach with congress. The constitution says congress shall make no law. The coach is not making a law he is leading a prayer. If the standard were applied equally which is what the constitution requires, students would not be forced to watch Al Gores religious propaganda film. Students who are made uncomfortable by sex talks in grammar schools would be exempted. You simply want to suppress religious expression because you disagree with it. The current state of affairs is a corruption of the constitution and would sicken the men who wrote it. You happen to have activist judges legislating from the bench who hold the same humanist views as you giving you cover. Plessy v. Ferguson I believe shows how right the courts always are. Good old Dewey had it right. Get control of the courts, the media, and the universities and we will take over society. He was a communist by the way not a Deist, and an educator. Dewey Decimal System for those of you not familiar.
    You are seeing the fruition of the plan. It isn't a new plan, Caesar was worshipped as a god. Bow down before your government and worship the earth goddess. God must be removed. You are doing to our theoretical coach the same thing China wants to do to the Dali Llama.

    Opiate of the masses regards,
    The coach, as a public school teacher, is an agent of government acting in accordance with law. Nothing in the Constitution says that schools should only teach subjects in ways that parents approve or in ways that do not challenge students' comfort levels. In fact, I would say that challenging students and their assumptions about how the world operates is a requirement for a good teacher. Otherwise, no one learns to think. I ultimately pulled my son out of public school and sent him to a Quaker school not because I am a Quaker (I am not and neither were 80% of the kids there), but because they pushed him to challenge himself and others while honing his own talents and beliefs.

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