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In an AKC Senior test, was this the "right call"?

15K views 210 replies 54 participants last post by  troy schwab 
#1 ·
AKC Senior test and the land double marks are being thrown. After the first bird lands, as the flyer is tossed, the dog starts prancing his feet and lifting his haunches (but does not move forward). The handler says "Sit."

The judges allowed completion of the series but told the handler she was out for her talking to her dog during the marks. Handler asked why wasn't this scored as a controlled break (allowed in Senior). One judge said: "Because you're an experienced handler and you should know better than to talk to your dog during the marks."

Right call?

Or should it be scored as a controlled break?
 
#2 ·
Right call. No talking once you call for the birds.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I see your logic here.

I have thought about it a minute and I wish I hadn't responded so quickly.

This isn't really a good scenario to "Judge from a keyboard".

In AKC HT, you aren't allowed to talk to your dog from the time you signal for the marks, until the Judge calls your number. As far as I am concerned, I consider any violation of that rule, to be a controlled break.

However, in HRC you are allowed to talk to your dog while the marks are being thrown. It is up to the Judges to interpret whether your "talking" was actually a controlled break.

That leads me to believe that there must be a gray area in AKC Senior as it applies to controlled breaks as well.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Dog stood up, it did not break. She talked to it. Not a controled break in my book. If the dog started to actually break, moving toward the fall (and the OP clearly says this did not happen) and she said something = controlled break. This = talking to the dog to prevent it from breaking, not controlling a break that is training on the line
Creeping is not a break
 
#7 ·
This has been one of the great mysteries of retriever games to me. When does toe tappin, butt wigglin, standing, and then on to belly crawlin', creepin 1 ft, then 4ft, become a true break? When can I say "no here" or blow the whistle???? I've had judges tell me both ways, one said I should have called him down before he bolted, and another said I was talking to the dog when I could tell he was going to break, and stopped him.

I know, I know, the answer is to make that dog mind! but in a test/trial ya gotta do something!
 
#11 ·
I agree the handler didn't trust the dog and "controlled" the upcoming break.

I think that is better than the handler waiting for the dog to do something "worse" before stopping it.
 
#12 ·
I agree the handler didn't trust the dog and "controlled" the upcoming break.

I think that is better than the handler waiting for the dog to do something "bad" before stopping it.

Right on......in TRAINING but not in a test. That is why you train.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Controlled break....once.

Breaking is a continous stream of behavior. As a judge, I can make no assumptions about what the dog is or is not about to do. All I can judge is what I see. When the handler says, "Sit", I can only assume that since the handler knows his dog, the dog is in the act of breaking.

Now to the specific case here. The judge did not allow the controlled break because the handler was experienced. That goes against what I said above in that the handler apparently knows the dog and knows the dog was in the act of breaking. The handler bit the bullet and stopped the break. The handler should have gotten the benefit of the rules.

In Master a controlled break is not allowed and therefore the handler can't say a thing. In Senior, a controlled break is allowed so you have to give the handler the ability to contol it with a verbal command.

Eric
 
#14 ·
Controlled break....once.

Breaking is a continous stream of behavior. As a judge, I can make no assumptions about what the dog is or is not about to do. All I can judge is what I see. When the handler says, "Sit", I can only assume that since the handler knows his dog, the dog is in the act of breaking.

Now to the specific case here. The judge did not allow the controlled break because the handler was experienced. That goes against what I said above in that the handler apparently knows the dog and knows the dog was in the act of breaking. The handler bit the bullet and stopped the break. The handler should have gotten the benefit of the rules.

In neither Master nor Junior is a controlled break allowed and therefore the handler can't say a thing. In Senior, a controlled break is allowed so you have to give the handler the ability to contol it with a verbal command.

Eric
so in your book, any senior dog that stands up can be talked to because you assume it is going to break because the handler talked to it? You say you can only judge what you see and yet you also say you base you judging on assumptions...assuming that since the handler talked the dog was breaking. If you did not see the dog breaking you are not judging on what you saw because what you saw was a dog stand up and make no forward motion and that is not a break. Since the handler knows the dog better than you why not let them judge all the work. I am sure they know how the dog runs blinds and what is a cast refusal to their dog better than you do.
 
#17 ·
Why? You have posted twice that you would call it a controlled break but no reason why? Do you judge, just wondering. What does brining them back prove? If the dog stands again and the handler says nothing, what then? Do you still think it was a controlled break or the handler talking to the dog? Do you then drop the dog for the handler talking in the first?
 
#22 ·
From the answers I can see this is a gray area.

My reaction was the same as copterdoc's. It has to be a "controlled break" because othewise you get the illogical result that the less well behaved dog (who moves forward and actually tries to go) gets a pass and the better behaved one is dropped. This is not the right result.

The rule is "you can't talk to your dog" but having a rule does not say what the penalty is for breaking it. I thought as far as "penalty," the general judging attitude was what Eric said -- you assume the handler knew the dog was breaking and therefore you score for a controlled break. In Master this would mean elimination from the stake. In Senior if it only happened once (you said sit once) you'd be scored down on trainability for a controlled break.

As far as something being "training during a test," to me that is not a useful tool for analyzing what's allowed or not, because "training" happens any time you give a command or blow a whistle or anything else. Anything we do while running a dog can be considered training in the sense that it changes a dog's behavior (we hope...)
 
#25 ·
From the answers I can see this is a gray area.

My reaction was the same as copterdoc's. It has to be a "controlled break" because othewise you get the illogical result that the less well behaved dog (who moves forward and actually tries to go) gets a pass and the better behaved one is dropped. This is not the right result.

The rule is "you can't talk to your dog" but having a rule does not say what the penalty is for breaking it. I thought as far as "penalty," the general judging attitude was what Eric said -- you assume the handler knew the dog was breaking and therefore you score for a controlled break. In Master this would mean elimination from the stake. In Senior if it only happened once (you said sit once) you'd be scored down on trainability for a controlled break.

As far as something being "training during a test," to me that is not a useful tool for analyzing what's allowed or not, because "training" happens any time you give a command or blow a whistle or anything else. Anything we do while running a dog can be considered training in the sense that it changes a dog's behavior (we hope...)

Please someone explain to me how a dog standing up is breaking? The dog STOOD UP WITH NO FORWARD MOVEMENT. I have seen MANY master dogs stand up while marks are falling and they are not breaking.......
Please, please explain how standing up is equal to breaking. If this is the case I will be judging a lot more dog to have broke or to have had controlled breaks in the future that I have not in the past.
 
#27 ·
"Section 11.​
In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, a
handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady,
or verbally restrain a dog on line, except in extraordinary
circumstances, from the time the first bird is being
thrown until the dog’s number is called. Violation of any
of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to
justify a grade of “0” in Trainability.:"


(2) Dogs shall be steady on the line, but a controlled
break or creeping shall result in a relatively lower score
in Trainability, than a controlled break or creeping would
in a Junior Hunting Test.

Going by what I read in the rules, badbullgator is right in that, in this case, the handler "verbally restrained" the dog but it did not creep or break so would get a 0 in "trainability".

It does seem odd to me however that saying SIT in this case is worse than re-heeling the dog if it did in fact leave the line.​


 
#29 · (Edited)
So a nervous handler blows the whistle or says sit at the first indication (To the handler) that the dog is about to break and you drop him. But the dog that actually breaks stride for 5 feet before stopping and reheeling is allowed a pass. Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning there. In my opinion, in a senior test, i'm paying alot more attention to the actions of the dog than I am of the handler. If the verbal sit gave no other advantage to the dog other that "possibly" preventing the break, than I am not going to fail the dog for a minor handleing error. I'll watch the dog complete my test and judge it on the merits of the dogs work. Granted I'll make note of the verbal sit on the line, and reserve final judgment once all series are completed.
 
#32 ·
So a nervous handler blows the whistle or says sit at the first indication (To the handler) that the dog is about to break and you drop him. But the dog that actually breaks stide for 5 feet before stopping and reheeling is allowed a pass. Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning there. In my opinion, in a senior test, i'm paying alot more attention to the actions of the dog than I am of the handler. If the verbal sit gave no other advantage to the dog other that "possibly" preventing the break, than I am not going to fail the dog for a minor handleing error. I'll watch the dog complete my test and judge it on the merits of the dogs work. Granted I'll make note of the verbal sit on the line, and reserve final judgment once all series are completed.
That's why we are judges, we judge, and make the decisions, OP made the decision for us.;-)
 
#30 ·
Not a break. The handler used it's judgement to make the call. Not what should have done. If it was to reheal the judges would have said so, once you say heal the rules plainly state no talking and you are at fault.

Don't kill yourself, let the judges judge. Creap is fine, break is a total different animal and OP stated the dog did not break.
 
#31 ·
I think an important word in the rule is "generally". This opens the rule to interpretation. In my book the handler opted to take a 5 point mark-down in trainability when he prevented his dog from breaking. Now's he's sitting on a big bubble going forward. Could/should he have stayed quiet? Perhaps, but maybe he knows that there is no such thing as a controlled break with this dog, so at the first hint of movement, -5 pts in trainability is better than a folded page.

If he is an experienced handler and knows this dog, then he's probably doing the right thing by making the judges judge. The judge that commented that he's out because "..he should know better" has discredited himself by confessing that personal opinions influenced his scoring (vs objective judgment) regarding the handler.

ml
 
#34 ·
Whether the dog was actually breaking or not, you as a judge can't say. What you can say is that the handler felt the dog was behaving in the manner that is the start of a break and therefore tried to control it. It's a legitimate controlled break.

I'm not assuming anything about the dog behavior. I'm assuming the handler behavior....the handler felt the dog was breaking and sought to control it. That's the sum total of what I need to know.

Eric
 
#40 ·
This is the answer!!!!!!!!!!!! Break or not, handler spoke to dog to gain control, serious fault. No PASS. If you want to hedge your bets, keep your mouth shut and see what the judges have to say. I have a creeper, never breaks, yet, just creeps, keep my mouth shut and see where I fall.:rolleyes:

BTW, as the old saying goes, TRAIN DON'T COMPLAIN.
 
#35 ·
Perhaps the judges were in agreement, perhaps the stronger willed one won an arguement......

If the handler knows that the dog is not one that stands, he/she would assume that the dog is in fact standing with intent to break. I have a friend that would call it a CB if the dogs butt comes up and the handler says sit. He knows dogs well, so I genearlly listen when he speaks......

As mentioned before if a dog is allowed to break, go forward and be braought back under control and it is a CB and dog is still playing, why wouldn't this dog still be playing with a CB. Perhaps to the HANDLERS STANDARD OF WHAT TEH HANDLER WILL CONDONE, the dog broke by violating the sit command......
 
#38 ·
as quoted above, verbally restraining your dog on line is "sufficent" grounds for scoring a "0" in trainablity. Sufficent to me does not imply ALWAYS grounds for a "0" in trainability.
You are avoiding my question.
Do you judge a dog that stands to have broke?
 
#43 ·
It's not a controlled break. The dog/handler should be dropped. If the handler had waited for the dog to move forward and said 'sit' at that time, it is a controlled break.



Juli
 
#47 ·
the dog didn't move forward..there was no break....how can you control something that hasn't happened? the term 'controlled break' implies the dog has broke and the handler is now 'controlling' the dog. In this case the handler was 'preventing' not 'controlling'...MHO> :)

BTW, this is one of the things I like about NAHRA - you can quietly talk to your dog while the birds are being thrown. However, I have no problem with the AKC rules as they pertain to talking, as they seem pretty cut and dry. No talkie to doggie until you get the okie dokie. :)

Juli
 
#54 ·
Its not that simple, a "break" is more than moving forward, I'd argue that its a series of events. If the dog is sitting it must stand up before it moves forward. In this case the dog did not move forward because the break was controlled. If you limit the definition of breaking to moving forward then there would be no such thing as creeping. If the dog was creeping and the handler said sit is he too dropped? Must the dog be in a full sprint before the handler can be judged to controlled a break?

Just thinking out loud. Thanks in advance for you feedback.

Steve Coombes
 
#48 ·
NO WAY is this a controlled break....Its a dog with poor line maners and a handler that talked to him...PERIOD

Now as far as to drop the dog...Well, that is up to the judges: Weather the handler is experienced or not, the rule is the rule, don't talk to your dog during the marks......I dislike the rule, but it is what it is.......Perhaps I'm missing something??? But, I don't see how this is a "controlled break" in the least.....
 
#49 ·
I understand the rules but don't understand why the rules are as they are. Dog has a controlled break and handle speaks to stop him (2 faults) dog lives to play again. Handler speaks (1 fault) dog go home and not come back.
 
#51 ·
I understand the rules but don't understand why the rules are as they are. Dog has a controlled break and handle speaks to stop him (2 faults) dog lives to play again. Handler speaks (1 fault) dog go home and not come back.

I agree.
I am not a big fan of not talking to your dog at any level. I have never hunted and not spoken to my dog. Not all the time, but I talk to them many times in the blind while hunting. Not to mention my dogs are often standing while hunting, but have never broke.... Regardless, it is the way the rule is written.
 
#50 ·
I know nothing, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night. :p

I'm pretty sure my dog has stood and rotated to see the 2nd mark before. If/when this happens, I have to bite my tongue to keep from telling her to sit. Why? Because I feel that would be viewed as talking to my dog during the marks.

I'm pretty certain my dog automatically sits before being released, but it's not because I commanded her to sit. I just might have to get a video camera and/or have a friend watch us closely the next time.
 
#52 ·
I know nothing, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night. :p

I'm pretty sure my dog has stood and rotated to see the 2nd mark before. If/when this happens, I have to bite my tongue to keep from telling her to sit. Why? Because I feel that would be viewed as talking to my dog during the marks.

I'm pretty certain my dog automatically sits before being released, but it's not because I commanded her to sit. I just might have to get a video camera and/or have a friend watch us closely the next time.
And nothing wrong with that. You dog stands he does not break. Standing and breaking are two different things.
 
#53 ·
The big problem I have here is the statement "you are an experienced handler". How does handle experience make a difference? It sure should not.

I'd rather have been dropped and would probably have take the dog off line if he had a chronic issue.

Am I the only one on the thread who cares more about the long term effect of letting a dog get away with such nonsense?

Test wise regards,
 
#55 ·
The big problem I have here is the statement "you are an experienced handler". How does handle experience make a difference? It sure should not.

I'd rather have been dropped and would probably have take the dog off line if he had a chronic issue.

Am I the only one on the thread who cares more about the long term effect of letting a dog get away with such nonsense?

Test wise regards,

Ah....because an experianced handler SHOULD know better. I would not want to drop a first time handler for one word. I can't say that I would not, but if I could help it I would not. Now an experianced handler may well be doing what I stated above...sit may not be tomake the dog not break, but rather to get is attention to see the next fall. Lets say the dog is locked on the first fall and the next fall is over 90 degs in the other direction. An experianced handler may well have something more in mind that his dog breaking. the dog turns to look at you as you say sit ands ses the second fall..... Experianced know better. The person stepping up with his first senior dog may not.
I care about not letting the dog get away with nonsense, but if my dog had a breaking issue saying SIT in the test is not going to solve it and you are training. I would have picked my dog (and have for very similar) or not had a problem with a judge disqualifying me for talking if I got a correction in. I use HRC for this very thing. I can talk and correct my dog and if the problem still continues I pick them up rahter than reward them
 
#58 ·
Consider the act of a person jumping.

If you take numerous still pictures of the entire act of jumping,,,,,

Would any picture that shows a foot still on the ground capture someone that has not yet jumped?

Would any picture that shows feet off the ground depict someone that has already jumped?

So they would have either not yet jumped, or have already jumped.


I think a break is a lot like that. There are a whole LOT of things that constitute a break, and there's no singular thing that constutes a break.

If you only consider forward motion to constitute a break, then by definition a creep would also be a (controlled) break.
 
#63 ·
Consider the act of a person jumping.

If you take numerous still pictures of the entire act of jumping,,,,,

Would any picture that shows a foot still on the ground capture someone that has not yet jumped?

Would any picture that shows feet off the ground depict someone that has already jumped?

So they would have either not yet jumped, or have already jumped.


I think a break is a lot like that. There are a whole LOT of things that constitute a break, and there's no singular thing that constutes a break.

If you only consider forward motion to constitute a break, then by definition a creep would also be a (controlled) break.

Again standing up is not a break. No way, no how and no a dog that has crept 3 feet is still WAITING to be sent for a retrieve. A dog that has broke has LEFT before being sent. Forward motion is just part, the rule says "leaves before sent" My mentioning of forward motion only goes to saying that a dog that stands has not broke (or even creeped in many cases) a dog that stands and moves forward is creeping to a point
 
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