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View Poll Results: controlled break or verbally restraining the dog?

Voters
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  • drop the team because the handler spoke to the dog before dog was released

    60 36.14%
  • carry the team with stern warning

    106 63.86%
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Thread: controlled break poll

  1. #41

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    I feel you are passing a standard (and this is not for the new handlers if you dont know the rules but if you dont then actually go to handlers meettings, these clubs set this up for YOUR BENEFIT. And you will also learn ALOT at a judges seminar so dont give up hope everyone wants you to be here and be a part of the sport) im mostly taling to the folks that know better and still try to pass through the skin of your teeth, it is a simple trainability issue to fix a break, controled or not. So train your dog, thats half the fun!
    Last edited by tejohns3; 01-17-2013 at 07:19 AM.

  2. #42

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    And just to be clear im am not talking about AFTER the judge releases the dog

  3. #43
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    That one is just fraught with "they passed, why didn't we", so sorry, if you're talking to you're dog in violation of the clearly written rules, my co-judge and I are going ot have to have a serious discussion about dropping you. New handler or not, mistake or not... and yes I've done it on line... You have to be dropped to avoid conflicts with others who may commit similar infractions.
    Darrin Greene

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    That one is just fraught with "they passed, why didn't we", so sorry, if you're talking to you're dog in violation of the clearly written rules, my co-judge and I are going ot have to have a serious discussion about dropping you. New handler or not, mistake or not... and yes I've done it on line... You have to be dropped to avoid conflicts with others who may commit similar infractions.
    In the master , yes ...remember the op said a SR....Senior are allowed a control break..like it or not , right or wrong ...One is allowed...If on the 2nd series you are talking to the dog again ...sorry ..you were probably told in the first you have used your control break....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  5. #45
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    I don't think there should be a different set of standards for "nervous first timers". Do it for one. Do it for all.
    Tom Dorroh

  6. #46
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    Here's another reference from the HT Rulebook:
    Serious Handler Faults: Serious faults listed cover all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of the handler which in and of itself justifies elimination from the stake.
    1. Lining a dog .......
    2. Talking to the working dog – the handler must remain silent from the time the handler signals for the first bird to be thrown until the judges release the dog.
    3. Talking to the honoring dog – loud enough to interfere
    Tom Dorroh

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juli H View Post
    Chapter 5, paragraph 11
    In senior and master hunting tests a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog online, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is thrown until the dog's number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of '0' in trainability.

    Juli
    Isn't the purpose of talking to a dog while the birds are going down to restrain or prevent a break ..? If you are successful the dog stays in place until sent or returns to original spot...This is a controlled break ..One is allowed in the Sr events...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  8. #48
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    There's a paradox here.

    (1.) It is against the rules to talk to the dog from the time you signal that you are ready for the birds, until released by the Judges.
    (2.) It is against the rules for the dog to break, before being released by the Judges.

    These rules apply at ALL levels.

    Since it is impossible for a controlled break to exist, without me breaking at least one rule, I'll just run my dogs in Master, where a controlled break automatically gets me disqualified.

    At least that makes sense.

  9. #49
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    copterdoc said
    There's a paradox here.
    definition: A paradox is an argument that produces an inconsistency, typically within logic or common sense. Most logical paradoxes are known to be invalid arguments, but are still valuable in promoting critical thinking.

    copterdoc then said
    (1.) It is against the rules to talk to the dog from the time you signal that you are ready for the birds, until released by the Judges.
    (2.) It is against the rules for the dog to break, before being released by the Judges.

    These rules apply at ALL levels.Since it is impossible for a controlled break to exist, without me breaking at least one rule, I'll just run my dogs in Master, where a controlled break automatically gets me disqualified.

    At least that makes sense.
    I'm thinking that was an invalid argument because it was said to be a logical paradox.....critically thinking of course.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 01-17-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    The paradox is, that a controlled break cannot exist, if the handler does not speak to the dog.

    There is virtually no confusion on interpreting this issue in HRC.
    Because the Handler is allowed to speak to the dog at all times.

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...d-Break-in-HRC

    Now, I'm not saying that the decision on whether or not to carry the dog isn't still a judgement call in HRC.
    But, there is no paradox created by the wording in the rule book.

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