controlled break poll

[Byron Musick]

Is there such a thing as a controlled break during the period the Handler calls for birds and the judges release your dog?? I'll shut up now..

[2tall]

Byron, in my experience that is the ONLY time you have a break, controlled or otherwise. Once the dog is released its impossible to break from the judges point of view. Sadly, I have too much experience in this issue. Got dropped once for talking when I told him to sit when I knew he was going to leave, and dropped the next time for a break because I did not say sit.

[Byron Musick]

Thanks Carol, it is prolly a really good thing I am not a judge! How do you conduct a controlled break if you can't talk to the dog?? Step on thier tail?

[Juli H]

Julie, in your poll you have carry the team with a stern warning as a choice. Why the stern warning? The handler should know he said something to the dog. I might remind him he had a controlled break but it wouldn't be a stern warning.

Kinda sounds like you're chewing his a**.

stern warning was my shorthand for telling the handler that's a serious fault, don't do it again. I'd presume most judges would give some sort of warning to a handler that spoke to steady his dog (while birds were in the air).

I am not an a** chewer, just ask my kids.

Juli

[Haylie's Stars A Burnin]

no forward movement = no break!
saying sit = speaking to dog
speaking to dog = breaking the rules
breaking the rules = consequences!
(I have read this comment several times "the dog is judged on what the judges see, not what the handler thinks" <----- I agree with that, if the dog was judged on what the handler thought then there would be no point of a judge.)
I would also expect that I would be dropped (being new and haven't ran a dog yet) as quickly as some one who has ran a hundred dogs for breaking a rule.

[paul young]

the penalty for either would be the same; a low trainability score. any unsteadiness in the other marking test would be cause to fail the dog for gross unsteadiness.

the fault in either case is the same; unsteadiness. the senior standard allows for some, but it requires that penalty.-Paul

[HuntinDawg]

I am not a judge and have not even attended a judges seminar so I did not vote. I will say that if I were to speak to my dog at any level of AKC HT after I called for the birds I would expect to be dropped. If I did this and was not dropped I would feel that I had been given a gift to a certain extent. Not that a ribbon would be unearned necessarily, the dog still has to do the work, but I would feel that I had dodged a bullet / judges showed mercy for my dumb/poor/possibly ignorant handling. I have been a recipient of mercy before, so I know what it feels like, but fortunately have not needed it for this issue.

Thanks Carol, it is prolly a really good thing I am not a judge! How do you conduct a controlled break if you can't talk to the dog?? Step on thier tail?

I would say that in a controlled break the dog would start to leave (i.e. stand up and take one or more steps forward with the intent to leave) then you could tell the dog to sit/heel and that would be a controlled break (possibly, depending on how far the dog went and how the dog responds to the verbal command). I would think it could be tricky for the judge to determine where creeping stops and breaking begins. Do you speak to your dog for creeping? I dunno. Mine mostly creeps in HRC for some reason.

[HuntinDawg]

I would also expect that I would be dropped (being new and haven't ran a dog yet) as quickly as some one who has ran a hundred dogs for breaking a rule.

That is a good attitude to have. However, the truth is that if you show up at a Junior test, ask questions in the handler's meeting and identify yourself as a first time handler, there is probably a better chance that you would be shown mercy and simply be corrected/warned/educated by the judges for some technical handler error than a more experienced handler would (a known handler or a pro) and I have no problem with that. If a judge is going to show mercy for handler error, a junior hunt test and a newbie handler is a good time to do it if the dog did the work IMO.

[badbullgator]

Juli I think you missed the point of the other thread. It was never, for me anyway, about dropping them or not but rather was it a controlled break or just talking to the dog. You do not have to drop a handler for talking to the dog, you may but you do not have too. Likewise you do not have to carry a senior dog for a controlled break, but you may carry that dog.

Classification of Faults
Classification of the many faults which may be exhibited
by retrievers during the course of a hunting test shall be primarily
in terms of generalizations. In the lists which follow,
various infractions are cataloged as I. Serious Faults, II.
Moderate Faults and III. Minor Faults. Each fault should be
considered as a single occurrence, and only to an average
degree. However, such infraction may be so minor in degree
that it scarcely merits the indicated penalty. Conversely, the
degree of a given instance of infraction may be of sufficient
gravity to merit a much more severe penalty that is suggested
— even to the point of elimination from the stake. Also, in
each of these three general categories, all of the faults listed
should not be given equal weight, since they are not of equal
gravity or importance.
Repetition of a fault, particularly time after time, indicates
a “weakness” or a bad habit, and justifies much more penalty
than in an isolated occurrence of this fault. The same
holds true when there is a combination of different faults.
The listing of individual faults within each category has not
been made in the order of their seriousness. A Judge may be
thoroughly justified in moderating a penalty or even in failing
to impose one, if, in his or her opinion, there have been
extenuating circumstances to justify such action.
The faults included in this classification are limited to
those which are observed most often at retriever Hunting
Tests. Others may occur, such as the repeated failure to
exercise gun safety, and this classification may serve as a
helpful guide on such occasions in determining the relative
importance of such unusual offenses.

[Juli H]

So, basically, it can be okay to talk to your dog in seniors and not get an immediate dq..but rather you can dinged on trainability. If you have a REALLY good dog, then perhaps as a handler you are wise to use this to your advantage.

I guess to me the rule is more cut and dry..and people should train for it...no talking to the dog to 'steady' them. If the dog breaks and you can get him under control, that shows 'some' trainability.
If the dog is 'dancing' at the line and the handler tells him 'sit', then as a judge do you know how much trainability the dog has (with regards to steadiness)?

Personally, I would not want to take the chance of talking to my dog and be dropped for it, or have it added to a low trainability score.

Juli