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Thread: The proposed 13 story mosque at Ground Zero

  1. #381
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Nothing dirty, nothing secret. When our country was formed, the idea of religious freedom and the separation of church and state was a radical concept, and remains one today (They don't call it the Church of England for nothing). I am continually thankful that our secular status was embedded in our Constitution. I suspect that it would have disappeared were it not for the difficulty of adopting a Constitutional Amendment..

    Great, but we were talking about Islamic countries and thier blurry line between government and relgion.



    RK
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  2. #382
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    You 2 do understand we are talking about Chicago here, right??



    RK
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  3. #383
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Great, but we were talking about Islamic countries and thier blurry line between government and relgion.



    RK
    The challenge for us is to defend the freedom of religion, but keep Islam as separate from our govt as any other religion.

    Because of the culture of Islam that may be harder to do than with some other religions, but that's what the Constitution requires us to do.

    There are religions that don't believe in doctors and medicine, and court battles have been waged over how to protect sick children in these circumstances. There are religions where polygamy is acceptable, but those practices must be made to conform to secular laws and practices (imagine a health insuror whose "family coverage" had to include 3 or 4 wives instead of just one!)

    So, while Islamic govts don't make the separation, that is what our govt has to do. How well they will do it ... remains to be seen.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hew View Post
    Yes, we know, Henry, it's always America's fault with you people. When they bombed the WTC the first time, when they bombed the US embassies in Africa, Khobar Towers, the Cole, the WTC (2nd time), the Pentagon, and well, you name it...it was all our fault for some supposed grievance or another. And I suppose it will be our fault the next time they bomb something and they/you blame the NYC mosque protests.
    Please Hew, please tell me how you know I think any of this? or where I ever have given any indication of this? Assume much. Stereotype much? I was trying to make the point that this is just the sort of thing that motivates those inclined to be extremists. Great material for an alqeda commercial. Maybe, just maybe we should think a bit about this? Look at how it has motivated the right wing extremists. Do you think it is not motivating a bunch of anti-American extremists? How about the morale of our muslim soldiers, or the families of muslims that died in the towers on 9/11? News flash. All muslims are not extremists. Why treat them all the same.

    And if you don't mind me saying, your notion that a muslim can be incensed into joining a death cult as a result of a mosque protest in America doesn't really say much about your opinions of Muslims. You really think that they're that immature, ignorant, blindly faithful and unsophisticated? Isn't that kind of prejudiced? Almost, well, you know...racist? You're not supposed to think that way, you know. That makes you just like the rest of us racist rubes and hicks....who have seen Muslims throw deadly temper tantrums about f'ing CARTOONS of Allah and one Koran supposedly being flushed down a crapper. We've also seen them lop off heads with rusty knives, strap C4 to their children's waist and send them into crowded markets to be human bombs, stone women for adultery and gays for being gay, kill their own daughters for not following Allah and mutilate their daughters' genitalia. And you want us to believe that the NYC mosque protest will be the tipping point for Muslim rage? Really?
    See note above. Glad to see you apparently think it is a good idea to recruit more extremists. That is a great plan.

    Lastly, it's instructive to note that you're quite passionate about the 1st Ammendment when it comes to building a mosque, but not quite so passionate about it when it comes to people protesting said mosque. In fact, it sounds a lot like you'd rather some Americans curtail their 1st Ammendment rights lest they offend some backward ass goat farmers half way around the world. I believe Alanis Morrissette would say that's, "a little too ironic, don't ya think?"
    I never suggested anything about the rights of protesters on either side of this issue. While convenient to make a false point, do not read anything into my message.
    They want to move into an abandoned building on a partly abandoned block several walking blocks away from the world trade site and people are hysterical about it. I thought our country was strong enough to deal with this. I guess only the local NY planning board was.
    Last edited by Henry V; 08-26-2010 at 11:36 PM.

  5. #385
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry V View Post
    Please Hew, please tell me how you know I think any of this? or where I ever have given any indication of this? Assume much. Stereotype much? I was trying to make the point that this is just the sort of thing that motivates those inclined to be extremists. Great material for an alqeda commercial. Umm, yeah...that was your point the first time: It will be our own fault that they resort to terrorism and try to kill us. Yeah, maybe I presumed too much earlier...maybe you don't think all those other examples of jihadist attacks against Americans were our own fault; just all the attacks from this point forward will be our own fault due to the naked provocation and galling temerity of our citizens to not be in favor of a Muslim monument to the last time they attacked us and killed 3,000 Americans. Maybe, just maybe we should think a bit about this? Look at how it has motivated the right wing extremists. Do you think it is not motivating a bunch of anti-American extremists? How about the morale of our muslim soldiers, or the families of muslims that died in the towers on 9/11? News flash. All muslims are not extremists. Why treat them all the same. And all Muslims aren't ignorant dipsh!ts stuck in a 6th century mentality who will resort to jihad in order to avenge opposition to the construction of a mosque. So why do you treat them all the same and cater to the lowest common demoninator as if they're all six year olds who can't be exposed to adult conversation?

    Using your same logic the Dutch cartoonist was wrong to draw cartoons of Allah, right?
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  6. #386
    Senior Member JJaxon's Avatar
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    Here it's said they way I see it. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pa...surprised.html

  7. #387
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    They want to move into an abandoned building on a partly abandoned block several walking blocks away from the world trade site and people are hysterical about it.
    I have heard it quoted that the mosque site is about 600 ft from Ground Zero. Maybe that is incorrect?

    600 ft is the length of 2 football fields. As Jeff demonstrated with maps earlier in the thread, you would not see the mosque from ground level due to the other buildings in between. It occurs to me that you might see it, however, if you were in one of the taller buildings. I'd expect that it would be likely that the call to prayer would be heard for a distance like that? Not sure how many times a day that will occur.

    It also occurs to me that since there are many wealthy Muslims (wealthy enough to donate the $100 million it will take to build the center; wealthy enough to fork over nearly $5 million cash for the property), have they also donated any funds for the Twin Towers monument?

    If some devout Muslims, here and abroad (as I quoted from the NY Times article) can understand that building a mosque in this controversial location may not be appropriate ... are they also "racist"?
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  8. #388
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    About the developer of the mosque.
    NY Times
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/ny...ed=1&th&emc=th

    But although he has cleared the legal hurdles and won approval from the local community board, Mr. Gamal has yet to secure financing, hire an architect, incorporate the nonprofit entity that will run the center, start its fund-raising, recruit its board members, or present formal feasibility studies and business plans to community meetings.
    Mr. Gamal has told supporters that he will take no money linked to “un-American” values and that donations will be vetted by federal and state authorities and separate boards for the center and the mosque.

    The downtown market is especially tricky, said Julie Menin, chairwoman of the local community board, with commuters during the day and residents at night. Then, too, some New York Muslims feel that $100 million would be better spent on facilities in more heavily Muslim neighborhoods, Aisha al-Adawiya, of the Harlem group Women in Islam, said.
    Debby Hirshman, who was the founding executive director of the J.C.C. and is a consultant on a community center to open next year in Battery Park City, said those projects spent 5 to 10 years on community meetings. Ms. Hirshman added, however, that organizations “start in all different ways.”
    In recent days, Mr. Gamal has reasserted control over the project’s image, stressing that he, not the imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is in charge, and hiring a new public relations adviser, Lawrence Kopp.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

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