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Thread: The proposed 13 story mosque at Ground Zero

  1. #31
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Zeus, are you saying that the quote that I came across (I wasn't actually looking for one, but just stumbled across it) does not appear in the Koran?

    In large part, you are seeing middle eastern cultures trying to hang on by their finger nails against the onslaught of western culture. Cultures under threat circle the wagons and get very conservative. Pushed further, some will respond with violence
    When you say "middle eastern cultures" are you including others besides Muslim? I have seen many notations that Muslims are migrating more and more into many parts of Europe, increasing their percentages of population in many traditionally non-Muslim countries.

    Evidently the problems there are similar to some of our US immigration issues, i.e. the newcomers are reluctant to assimilate into their adopted countries. The article I read about the head-covering for women law in France does not include scarves, but does include the coverings that conceal the face. I can see the practicality of that in a country that might require photo ID for legal purposes (like the photo required on my state's driver's license). The discussion on the law was whether it violated freedom of religion.

    If I migrated to another country for permanent residence, I would expect that I should do so with the intention of adapting to a new culture to a large degree.

    I admit that I do not know any Muslims personally. Nor do I know any Buddhists or Shintoists. I only know Christians, Jews, atheists and agnostics. I just try to keep an open mind about it.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  2. #32
    Senior Member gman0046's Avatar
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    zeus3925, you are wrong about the way muslims put their pants on. They don't wear pants. They wear what's called Seven Day Sh*tters. The leg's are tied closed at the bottom and they clean them out every seven day's.
    Last edited by gman0046; 07-21-2010 at 04:59 PM.

  3. #33
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    This is like adding salt to a wound.
    Let's stand together, practice your Christian beliefs.We cannot allow such things to happen or even be thought of.
    Pastor James

  4. #34
    Senior Member gman0046's Avatar
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    Most Americans are with you Pastor James. Too bad our president isn't.

  5. #35
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    From my perspective, there are no relevant differences between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. They share common religious and moral roots with minor differences. I don't believe in any of these religions, and therefore take no interest in doctrinal differences between them. All three religions are plagued by "true believers" who are defined by their intolerance. Interestingly, of the three, Christianity is the one that supports the most aggressive perspective on conversions, while Judaism actively discourages conversion. The Koran prohibits any efforts to impose Islam on a non-believer. Mainstream Islam has often denounced Muslim extremists. American Muslims have done this even more aggressively. Many Muslims were among the victims of 9/11 and among the first responders. Islam is not responsible for the evil done in its name any more than Christian churches are responsible for the evil done in the name of Christ. Islam is not a monolithic church. The days of the caliphates have passed. There are many broad sects of Islam (e.g. Sunni, Shiya), but individual clerics operate with a great deal of autonomy -- freer than a Catholic or Episcopal church, but not as free as a Unitarian church or even a synagogue. Unfortunately, that allows any number of people to speak in the name of the religion without giving anyone else the authority to demand that they stop.

    Many of my relatives are Muslim (and many more are Christian, Jewish, or not religious at all). I see no reason to accept the kind of labeling and condemnation suggested here of a religion believed in one form or another by almost as many people as profess to be Christian. Religious war, in my mind, are always evil.
    Last edited by YardleyLabs; 07-21-2010 at 04:39 PM.

  6. #36
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorjames50@gmail.com View Post
    This is like adding salt to a wound.
    Let's stand together, practice your Christian beliefs.We cannot allow such things to happen or even be thought of.
    Pastor James
    Well Pastor, I am going to enter an objection here in the name of libertarianism. I am not saying that we as Christians should forsake our beliefs. But when you say we should not allow such things to happen, what do you invoke as an enforcer here? Muslims, pagans, wickens, and what-have-you, have a First Amendment right to practice their religions in America. To not allow such things to happen would require governmental intervention in a manner in which I am not interested in seeing.

    And who else are you going to deem as an inappropriate church or religion? It might be your church one day and the next day mine.
    Last edited by zeus3925; 07-21-2010 at 05:15 PM.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  7. #37
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Well Pastor, I am going to enter an objection here in the name of libertarianism. I am not saying that we as Christians should forsake our beliefs. But when you say we should not allow such things to happen, what do you invoke as an enforcer here? Muslims, pagans, wickens, and what-have-you, have a First Amendment right to practice their religions in America. To not allow such things to happen would require governmental intervention in a manner in which I am not interested in seeing.

    And who else are you going to deem as an inappropriate church or religion? It might be your church one day and the next day mine.
    Whatever standard the city fathers of NYC have should hold.
    If Christians or Jews would be denied zoning then so should Muslims.

    Fair enough??




    rk
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  8. #38
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Whatever standard the city fathers of NYC have should hold.
    If Christians or Jews would be denied zoning then so should Muslims.

    Fair enough??




    rk
    Yep! If done in similar manner across the board.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  9. #39
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Zeus, are you saying that the quote that I came across (I wasn't actually looking for one, but just stumbled across it) does not appear in the Koran?



    When you say "middle eastern cultures" are you including others besides Muslim? I have seen many notations that Muslims are migrating more and more into many parts of Europe, increasing their percentages of population in many traditionally non-Muslim countries.

    Evidently the problems there are similar to some of our US immigration issues, i.e. the newcomers are reluctant to assimilate into their adopted countries. The article I read about the head-covering for women law in France does not include scarves, but does include the coverings that conceal the face. I can see the practicality of that in a country that might require photo ID for legal purposes (like the photo required on my state's driver's license). The discussion on the law was whether it violated freedom of religion.

    If I migrated to another country for permanent residence, I would expect that I should do so with the intention of adapting to a new culture to a large degree.

    I admit that I do not know any Muslims personally. Nor do I know any Buddhists or Shintoists. I only know Christians, Jews, atheists and agnostics. I just try to keep an open mind about it.
    Gerry, I am no Koranic expert. I have a hard enough time keeping up with my own scripture. I do posses a copy of the Koran that a Muslim friend gave me but there isn't much there that would induce me to Islam. However, I did get far enough to see this quote from the Koranic Book of the Cow:

    [2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

    Remember again Allah is an Arabic word meaning God, as in the God of Abraham.

    There is not a unitary Muslim culture. There are many cultures in the Middle East where Islam is the dominant religion. Iranian culture is different from Arab Culture as is Turkish from Arabic. Doctrinally they have their differences. We have our Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestant camps as they have their Sunnis, Shiites and Sufi. And they kill themselves over the differences as we did in Europe in the aftermath of the Reformation.

    France is a country to which there has been a lot of Muslim migration. France is an old colonial power and they maintain a relationship with their former colonies as the British in their commonwealth. Immigration from former colonies, including Muslim colonies, has up to this point been pretty open. Since the formation of the European Union, the people once landed in a EU country are free to move into any country in the union, as a right guaranteed under the EU constitution. There are no internal borders in the old traditional sense.

    France is seen as a good destination as France prides itself on being egalitarian. Even so, there is a definite wall that is erected between the indigenous population and the new comers.

    If I were to emigrate, France would be near the top of my list. At my age, learning French is most traumatic. I can read it to a fair degree. Speaking it is another matter.

    As Mark Twain once said," My recent trip to France was most frustrating for me. Try as I might, I couldn't get the French to understand their own language."
    Last edited by zeus3925; 07-21-2010 at 10:53 PM.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman0046 View Post
    These posts by Yardley fully expose him for what he is. He is a one man defender of muslims and the koran.
    You forgot Obama....oops you did say defender of muslims didn't you ? sorry my bad...
    BobbyB
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