Attn Mosque sympathizers!

[Keith Farmer]

And rational historians

Jeff,

By your own admission you do not believe in the biblical God...am I correct in saying this?

Also, you admit to believing in evolution...in fact you have defended that concept here many times.

May I ask from where in your worldview any notion of rationality arises?...a worldview by your admission which has no God and understands that everything that exists is a result of chemicals acting and reacting in a random chance process with the ultimate goal of self-preservation in an atmosphere of survival of the fittest.

Further, if you really adhere to such a worldview then explain to me how you know your senses are reliable...I mean you say "rational historian" as if randomly acting chemicals bestow a reliable sense of past events.



.

[Keith Farmer]

I've worked with many Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, atheists, deists...and all groups have some genuinely nice people, and some real a$$holes. I don't happen to agree with some of their religious teachings, but I also disagree with some of my Catholic upbringing.

So in your worldview YOU are the ultimate authority?

If that is your contention then may I ask from where/whom did you get the credentials to establish yourself as that authority?



.

[YardleyLabs]

Jeff,

By your own admission you do not believe in the biblical God...am I correct in saying this?

Also, you admit to believing in evolution...in fact you have defended that concept here many times.

May I ask from where in your worldview any notion of rationality arises?...a worldview by your admission which has no God and understands that everything that exists is a result of chemicals acting and reacting in a random chance process with the ultimate goal of self-preservation in an atmosphere of survival of the fittest.

Further, if you really adhere to such a worldview then explain to me how you know your senses are reliable...I mean you say "rational historian" as if randomly acting chemicals bestow a reliable sense of past events.



.

Keith,

Reason existed long before Christ was born or Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt. Neither reason nor morality nor altruism or charity depend on belief in a deity. In the words of Déscartes, cogito ergo sum.

[road kill]

So in your worldview YOU are the ultimate authority?

If that is your contention then may I ask from where/whom did you get the credentials to establish yourself as that authority?



.

In all fairness, this applies to many if not all of US here.

In my world and my veiw of it I am the ultimate authority.
The many roads and paths I have followed and been down brought me here.
Same with Mr. Yardley.

Right or wrong??

Neither I say.


"Keep on keepin' on".........cause road kill says so.


(Keith, I in no way mean this as disrespect toward you)


RK

[dnf777]

So in your worldview YOU are the ultimate authority?

If that is your contention then may I ask from where/whom did you get the credentials to establish yourself as that authority?



.

Its called relaying my experience. I have had the fascinating opportunity to work with a vast diversity in the medical field, at some world renown centers that attract talent from all corners of the earth. In no way does that support your wild-arse claims you made on my behalf, thank you very much. I could just as easily comment that YOU seem to think you're the new-age prophet, trying to convert all of us to YOUR specific brand of belief. (I know, the ONE TRUE belief)

I just don't think that many of the muslim fearing/hating people in this movement even know any muslims. So if you have something substantive to add, by all means.....but just to take romper-room shots at others, don't waste your time.

[Keith Farmer]

Keith,

Reason existed long before Christ was born or Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt.

That is quite true Jeff...just as the bible clearly teaches...but that statement is irrelevent to my question to you.

Since "reason" has existed prior to those events, by your admission, I would like for you to explain how a random chance universe gives rise to uniformity, logic, and or absolute morality (randomness and natural selection via survival of the fittest are the MO remember). Tell me where/how in an God-less evolutionary worldview that any of those preconditions of intelligibility originated.

Neither reason nor morality nor altruism or charity depend on belief in a deity.

The key phrase here Jeff is "belief" in a deity...and you are correct in that one's belief in a deity does not generate or alter the existence of logic, uniformity, or absolute morality; in fact, those laws exist whether you believe in them or not.

So, again, if those preconditions of intelligibility exist, either in agreement with our beliefs or totally apart from our beliefs, from where do they originate in an atheistic evolutionary worldview?

I mean they absolutely make sense in the Christian worldview which is based on the biblical God Who cannot lie; Who is altogether good; Who is Holy, Just and Righteous; Who is immutable (He cannot change); Who is omnipresent (everywhere at the same time), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnipowerful (has all power)...But where do those eternal attributes exist in atheism or evolutionism?

charity

Charity presupposes a standard of goodness Jeff...where in a God-less evolutionary worldview does goodness arise? Remember, its random and based on survival of the fittest. Why would you or any atheistic evolutionist care about charity since it adds absolutely nothing to your survival value?

cogito ergo sum

Explain how this answers my questions regarding evolution?

"I think, therefore I am"...again, that presupposes a logical order which presupposses logic.





.

[Keith Farmer]

Its called relaying my experience

That should be "relying" should it not?...at any rate:

Paul wrote extensively about living a life that flows from an impure heart. Paul said that such a hardened heart produces in an individual ignorance and separation from God. Paul said that an impure/hardened heart would cause one to follow after futile thinking. Relying on one's own mind apart and aside from the biblical God as the ultimate authority is rather foolish according to Paul.


Ephesians 4:17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.



1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.(NIV)



Paul wrote such things for this reason...



Colossians 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.(NIV)

You see, apart from Christ nobody can know anything. ALL the treasures of both wisdom and knowledge are Christ's.









.

[YardleyLabs]

That is quite true Jeff...just as the bible clearly teaches...but that statement is irrelevent to my question to you.

Since "reason" has existed prior to those events, by your admission, I would like for you to explain how a random chance universe gives rise to uniformity, logic, and or absolute morality (randomness and natural selection via survival of the fittest are the MO remember). Tell me where/how in an God-less evolutionary worldview that any of those preconditions of intelligibility originated.




The key phrase here Jeff is "belief" in a deity...and you are correct in that one's belief in a deity does not generate or alter the existence of logic, uniformity, or absolute morality; in fact, those laws exist whether you believe in them or not.

So, again, if those preconditions of intelligibility exist, either in agreement with our beliefs or totally apart from our beliefs, from where do they originate in an atheistic evolutionary worldview?

I mean they absolutely make sense in the Christian worldview which is based on the biblical God Who cannot lie; Who is altogether good; Who is Holy, Just and Righteous; Who is immutable (He cannot change); Who is omnipresent (everywhere at the same time), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnipowerful (has all power)...But where do those eternal attributes exist in atheism or evolutionism?




Charity presupposes a standard of goodness Jeff...where in a God-less evolutionary worldview does goodness arise? Remember, its random and based on survival of the fittest. Why would you or any atheistic evolutionist care about charity since it adds absolutely nothing to your survival value?




Explain how this answers my questions regarding evolution?

"I think, therefore I am"...again, that presupposes a logical order which presupposses logic.





.

You place a great deal of emphasis on absolute morality, but few things are less absolute.There are common moral themes across cultures and across time. However, there have been strong shifts in morality as well (witness, for example, shifting perspectives on the rules of Leviticus). What we call morality is as much a survival trait for humans as a social species as any other of our evolved characteristics. Without social rules concerning murder, protection of property, and protection of familial relationships, tribal communities could not have survived. Altruism and charity -- as those terms reference specific types of actions -- are not simply human traits. They are found in all social species (e.g. ants, bees, wasps). You talk about evolution as a random process. However, it is anything but random. It is a species survival directed process and that direction is very powerful.

[ducknwork]

Fear peddling is all they got!

Bad as Obama's economic policy may be, theirs was worse.....and they're afraid people haven't forgotten yet! Their only chance of winning elections is to divert voter's attention away from who got us into this mess, and the quickest way to do that is with fear. Fear of brown people always seems to work best for them, hence all the anti-muslim propaganda. Can't wait for the Willie al-bin Horton ads to start running!

What was different about it?

I thought we keep hearing how Obama has simply continued the Bush policies.

I hear crickets.

[dnf777]

Your fun to pick on Dave,,,you supply me with more ammo than I'll ever use.

Again If you rely totally on your experiences and what your mind manufactures and ultimately forms what you believe,,then you are your own god. I forget but there is a word for that Theres even many whole chapters devoted to that subject.
And those bible characters didn't have the internet

Pete

Well, with all that ammo you're stockpiling, be careful you don't blow yourself up. And please, if I'm not working or burning time on this forum, I usually am outside or have a book in my hands trying to expand my horizons. That is why perhaps I'm more accepting of people with differing views than mine than some others. Not as much as others, I might add.

I believe in one creator. He may have different faces and different names or forms to different people. I can easily accept that. Some here, would insist that he appears just as he does in the paintings above their beds, with no room for dissent whatsoever. That is why they feel the need to protest mosques being built. Just sayin'.....