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Thread: It appears France has more balls than our POTUS

  1. #21
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Was a Bible used in the earliest ceremony of swearing in a President?

    My sense would be that the majority of the founding fathers believed in some form of God. Since it was already evident at that time that there were a wide assortment of beliefs, individual freedom would have to include the freedom to worship (or not) as long as it did not interfere with any other individual's freedom to do the same ... one of those "inalienable rights" ... "endowed by their Creator." So, even if the some of the founders did not believe in any God, they acknowledged that most people did.

    I'd guess that there might be some of our founders who might have been "doubtful" of the existence of God, but if they were going to be really upset about the US today, there would be a lot more things to upset them a whole lot more than seeing "under God" in the pledge or "In God We Trust" on our money!

    Heck! Better to see "In God We Trust" on our money than "In Congress We Trust" ... the latter would surely be more of an abomination to the founders' goals for this country
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  2. #22
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    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776.
    I wonder what Jefferson meant by that?

  3. #23
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducknwork View Post
    I wonder what Jefferson meant by that?

    Allah???


    RK
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  4. #24
    Senior Member troy schwab's Avatar
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    A very good read on the state of Islam in France....... and striking similarities to the US going forward......... Have at it....

    Yardley, I know you know everything, but maybe you should read it too.......might learn about how Islam is pretty much destined to take over the world, due to shitty citizenship control of immigrants, and high birthrates...... Thanks, but no thanks.

    http://www.meforum.org/337/islam-in-...-of-life-is-in

  5. #25
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducknwork View Post
    I wonder what Jefferson meant by that?
    The "creator" is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution: two very different documents. It would be hard to be more generic that to use the term "creator" -- not God, not deity, not Allah. Jefferson was generally a deist, but probably had a concept of creation that was closer to Darwin than to Genesis. Among his many accomplishments was that he was one of America's earliest paleontologists and his collection of fossils may still be seen in museums today. The Declaration of independence was a call to arms. The Constitution was the legal foundation for a secular state. The only mention of religion in the Constitution is the prohibition on government "respecting" any establishment of religion or restricting any practice of religion. The only mention of "god" is in the dating of the document.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Was a Bible used in the earliest ceremony of swearing in a President?

    My sense would be that the majority of the founding fathers believed in some form of God. Since it was already evident at that time that there were a wide assortment of beliefs, individual freedom would have to include the freedom to worship (or not) as long as it did not interfere with any other individual's freedom to do the same ... one of those "inalienable rights" ... "endowed by their Creator." So, even if the some of the founders did not believe in any God, they acknowledged that most people did.

    I'd guess that there might be some of our founders who might have been "doubtful" of the existence of God, but if they were going to be really upset about the US today, there would be a lot more things to upset them a whole lot more than seeing "under God" in the pledge or "In God We Trust" on our money!

    Heck! Better to see "In God We Trust" on our money than "In Congress We Trust" ... the latter would surely be more of an abomination to the founders' goals for this country
    The Presidential oath reads:
    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
    Many Presidents have added the words "So help me God", and almost all have used a Bible in the swearing in ceremony. John Quincy Adams, a Unitarian, swore his oath on a book of laws. Personally, I would rather see Presidents swear on a copy of the Constitution. I agree, and stated in my post, that the separation between the business of government and the business of religion was not a product of lack of belief in God. Virtually all of our founding fathers were theists of one form or another. However, their beliefs covered a wide spectrum, including. They had no interest in seeing government become part of religion, and believed that the way to avoid that was to prevent religion from becoming part of government. That was the context for Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists where the expression "separation of church and state" was first articulated in that form.

  6. #26
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=troy schwab;676580]might learn about how Islam is pretty much destined to take over the world, due to shitty citizenship control of immigrants, and high birthrates...... Thanks, but no thanks.


    I thought that was the Mexicans? I'm just not up on my ethnic world domination reading I guess.....
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  7. #27
    Senior Member troy schwab's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=dnf777;676603]
    Quote Originally Posted by troy schwab View Post
    might learn about how Islam is pretty much destined to take over the world, due to shitty citizenship control of immigrants, and high birthrates...... Thanks, but no thanks.


    I thought that was the Mexicans? I'm just not up on my ethnic world domination reading I guess.....
    No.... as usual ..... your ignorant on this topic as well............SHOCKER!

  8. #28
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gman0046 View Post
    Obongolo has yet to take a stance against muslims. Has anyone asked the question why?
    OOOH OOOH I Know, I know!!!
    We can gather in angry groups and beat them with sticks if they have the wrong type of clothing!
    UmÖ.
    Donít they already do that someplace? Where is that again? We wanna be more like that?????

    Please, no wardrobe police in MY United States of America!



    .
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    The "creator" is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution: two very different documents. It would be hard to be more generic that to use the term "creator"
    I thought the question was about our "founders" ... in which case the signers of the Declaration of Independence would qualify?

    The Constitution acknowledges religion (whatever form it might take) as part of the human nature ... and assures freedom for an individual in regard to their religion, but does not take a position of "favoring" one religion (or lack thereof) over another.
    That seems entirely appropriate to me.

    The problem becomes when any individual, in exercise of their freedoms, interferes with the freedom of another individual to do likewise. Rule of law prevents this from happening (when we're lucky). It is in the areas of common sense and mutual respect that we get into trouble.

    Evidently the French fear that their national culture is in danger. Since I don't live in France, I don't know whether that fear has any validity. If a Muslim community (in any country) places Shariah law above secular laws, then there is going to be a problem for sure. It would be most of a problem in any country church and govt are separated.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  10. #30
    Senior Member troy schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    OOOH OOOH I Know, I know!!!
    We can gather in angry groups and beat them with sticks if they have the wrong type of clothing!
    UmÖ.
    Donít they already do that someplace? Where is that again? We wanna be more like that?????

    Please, no wardrobe police in MY United States of America!



    .
    I agree Ken, no wardrobe police...... hell, they might ban pink hats!!!

    But, at the same time...... where do you draw the line in the UNITED states of America...... hard to be diverse and united at the same time.......

    Line in the sand regards.....

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