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Thread: R Public Employees Overpaid - Part II

  1. #21
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    How did my grand parents generation learn to speak English without all the ESL classes?

    Where there is a will, there is a way. If the family values demand English, then English it shall be.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dixidawg View Post
    How did my grand parents generation learn to speak English without all the ESL classes?

    Where there is a will, there is a way. If the family values demand English, then English it shall be.
    The family values can demand it all they want, but you still have to have someone to teach you how to speak and read English properly. My grandparents were tutored by the nuns. These women had/made the time to work one on one with kids, before and after school. My grandmother had to repeat first grade because the language was harder for her, but then she told me she became a very good student after that experience.
    ESL is just a label the school districts use. There are all kinds of labels used in the school to describe classes. When I was in school they had the smart class, the slow class, and the tiny class. It is just a label. We use to call people retarded now they are special, it is just a label. When my kids were in grade school and high school I did not want them to work at a slower pace just because someone else needed more help.

    The fact is not everyone was blessed to have English as a first language and not everyone learns at the same rate or will achieve the same no matter how hard they try. The same with dogs. Every dog is different. My dog has a first time Labrador owner and this is my first time training for hunting. She has all the natural talent, but I'm just not a good enough handler to get her to the top. I have a will for her to be great, but I still need a good teacher to help her. Same with learning English, you do need a good teacher, especially if your parents are first timers.

    Terri

  3. #23
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    Do you not believe that English immersion programs can have better outcomes than traditional ESL programs? There are very big differences in the two besides what label they are given.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
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    If you are asking me which program I like, then my answer is the program that gets the job done, teaching everyone who wants to live in this country how to speak English. You can call it what you want it is still just a label. ESL is just English as a Second Language program. Some teachers, districts, and states do a better job of teaching required subjects. The names are always changing. I'm not in education, but I did take education classes back in my college days and that is what one of my professors taught us about educational labels. I always thought the education professors were the best teachers, but the education students all drove me crazy. I'm sure that is why I did not major in the subject.

    Terri

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dixidawg View Post
    Do you not believe that English immersion programs can have better outcomes than traditional ESL programs? There are very big differences in the two besides what label they are given.
    Young children are exceptionally adept at learning a second language!

    Short story to illustrate: a friend was a teacher at a military-based school & was told to ONLY speak English to the children in her class because that would compel the children to learn English. After a couple of months, she was called in by a superior and "accused" of speaking French to her students instead ... because most of the children in her class were now speaking French. The accusation had no basis since the teacher did not speak French! She could only speak to her students in English! The children, themselves, in order to play and interact had taught themselves French. (since the French-speaking students outnumbered the English-speaking students, the French became the language the group adopted).

    It becomes harder to learn a second language as we grow older, so the key is starting children with a "second language" as soon as possible.

    As a child, my grandmother spoke only Italian, and no English. Everyone else in the family, however, spoke English (and without any accent as well). Before starting school, I could speak both languages interchangeably ... because I spent a lot of time with my grandmother. Once I started school I gradually lost my fluidity in Italian. However, I found out later that the grammar remained in the remote areas of my brain, and made it much easier for me to learn Latin, French and German in high school and college.

    Yes, I believe that "emersion" and "compelling" children to learn English is as effective as having classes. I suspect that the problem in some locations is that there are more non-English-speaking children in a classroom than there are English-speaking children.

    If we want to see the results of having "two languages" ... just ask how well that works in Quebec.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terri View Post
    My husband is a Civil Engineer employed by our state. His has made less money that Engineers in the private sector and in other public sector jobs. Several years ago the state promised to bring his salary in line with other Engineers who work for cities and counties in our state. It was going to take four years to balance out. A couple years he did get a raise. Then some employees got a raise and he did not because of his classification, supervisor, which he does not supervise anyone he is really a specialist. Only several people in the whole state do the same job as him. His title was supervisor specialist, until his last evaluation when the specialist was dropped. All this to help balance the state books. Now he has three Fridays a month off, 15% pay cut. Civil Engineers who work for our state transportation are Federally funded so it does not affect the state's general funds. Why has he worked for the state for 22 years, if he can make more money in the private? When he started working for the state he was proud to be working for one of the top transportation departments in the world. Now he has put so much time in. At his age it is too risky to start over. Retirement is right around the corner.
    All opinions though I did fix one part . You don't talk about what state you are from so we have no base to see if you might have a grievance! What numbers do you base your private sector claim on? I believe we have several engineers who frequent PP so can add credibility or $^$##^&* to your claim.

    I for example know that teachers in SD receive considerably less in the rural areas, but are still paid quite well compared to those in the community. They also turn out a superior product!



    As for as teachers being at the bottom, I'm sure there are many. Our son is going to college to be a teacher, he has always been at the top of his peers in IQ and on the state tests. What will make him a great teacher is not how smart he is, but that he has a real passion for teaching children. He started teaching swim lessons when he was 14 years old. Now he is 21, he is the cities year round pool manager. He is going to school part time to finish his education. He has 40 employees under him and makes under $14 per hour with no benefits.
    I sense a little parental pride but that don't stand up well when negotiating a contract with a group of those who do not share your son's passion .

    The public is getting a bargain and we (parents and son) pay taxes, too.


    Terri
    Again an opinion backed with no substance .
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    .

    I'd like to hear of others experiences within the public realm!! Facts & numbers please .
    While many people seem to scornfully focus on Public employees compensation as compared to the private sector, I'd suggest that public employees represent the last vestige of the once formidable American Worker. The decline of worker compensation in the private sector is the problem. We've seen a generation pass by as the attack on the US worker has steadfastly erroded the portion of profit that is allocated to workers pay and benefits. At the same time we've seen the rank and power of the very wealthy grow. The Greatest Generation of American's not only stood up to and defeated the Nazi's and Japanese; they also stood up to and defeated their generations versions of Wall Street Barons.

    Unfortunately the tables have turned on us again, and the US worker is in a serious decline. The answer is NOT to dumb down the public sector to match the dwindling compensation of the private sector. The solution is to rejuvinate the Private workforce and take back what has been lost over the last 30 years.

    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/rlawre...20Brandeis.pdf
    Grouping earnings by education reveals for example that from 2000 to 2006, an
    astonishingly small fraction of workers—just the 3.4% with doctorates and professional
    graduate degrees (JD’s, MBAs, & MDs) enjoyed any increases at all in average inflationadjusted
    take home pay. For workers with a college education, this recent slow real wage
    growth is a relatively new experience because these workers had seen their real pay rising
    steadily between 1980 and 2000; but for most other workers, the recent weak wage
    growth actually continues a longer run trend, in which, with the exception of the late
    1990s, average hourly wages have failed to grow.
    At the same time as wages were stagnating, though, rich Americans were clearly
    getting richer. In 2006, the share of corporate profits in national income was higher than
    at any time since 1947. And the inequality was not only reflected in the behavior of
    profits. The share of wage income reported in the very top one percent of US tax returns
    in 2005 was almost double that recorded in 1980.

    One way of vividly illustrating the concern about the fate of the typical worker is
    to contrast the growth in output per worker against real average hourly earnings over the
    past quarter century. One might have expected that the two series would track each other.
    1Yet, they tell strikingly different stories. Labor productivity growth has been robust and
    output per hour has risen by over 50 logarithmic points or 70 percent.2 By contrast,
    average real hourly wages have been virtually flat: measured in 1982 dollars, they grew
    just 4.4 percent-- averaging $7.88 in 1981 and $8.23 in 2006

    So why are US workers doing so poorly?

    The views of Stephen Roach, chief economist at Morgan Stanley are typical:
    “Globalization hasn’t exactly lived up to its win-win” billing. While the developing
    world has benefited from the first win, in the rich countries the spoils of the second win
    have gone mainly to the owners of capital.”…… “The global labor arbitrage has put
    unrelenting pressure on employment and real wages in the high-cost developed world”

    This decline in compensation as heretofore bypassed the Public Jobs sector. Probably in part because of strong unions, and also because of the lack of direct control from Wall Street. INHO, the attack on public employees did get under way during the Clinton administration, and escalated rapidly during the Bush years.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    All opinions though I did fix one part . You don't talk about what state you are from so we have no base to see if you might have a grievance! What numbers do you base your private sector claim on? I believe we have several engineers who frequent PP so can add credibility or $^$##^&* to your claim.

    I for example know that teachers in SD receive considerably less in the rural areas, but are still paid quite well compared to those in the community. They also turn out a superior product!





    I sense a little parental pride but that don't stand up well when negotiating a contract with a group of those who do not share your son's passion .



    Again an opinion backed with no substance .
    Marvin,

    Is not this whole post about opinions? The posted public incomes are the only facts, but is it too much or too little is an opinion. When you say people are over paid that is your opinion, which you have a right to have, but it does not make it a fact. How do you compare different types of jobs or similar jobs located in different states? Different jobs require different skills and training. There is more a demand for some skills and less for others. Each state has a different cost of living. Some states cost more to live in and some state cost less. The great think about this country is we have the choice to make career choices and live in any state we choice. It is a balancing act. A give and take. To make money involves a lot of factors.
    I do have a lot of pride for my son. I consider him a public employee because he works for the city as a pool manager, he is not a teacher, yet. The bargain I was referring to in my post goes to our city. Yes, it was only an opinion. It was my opinion. I also have a right to an opinion. The fact is my son makes under $14 an hour with no benefits and a staff of 40. Do you think he is making too much money? If you do not have kids, you may say yes. If you have kids and my son taught your kid to swim 25 yards in two weeks or saved your kid from drowning you might think he should get a raise. Either way it is still just an opinion.
    We live in California. I base my information about an husband's level of pay off of information we have received from state reports. The reports explained why they were phasing in raises over several years. The plain was to bring the Engineers income in line with other public agencies, cities and counties in the state. With state budget problems the cost adjustments were stopped, classifications changed, and several days off per month. The department of transportation is a specially funded agency, not part of the general fund. I think you should be able to fact check this information. To compare his income to the private sector came from information obtained from our daughter's friend who is a civil engineer working for a private company in our state. He had looked up my husband's salary, which is public information, and he couldn't believe how close their salaries where to each other. Then they had to discuss the benefits and again he told us my husband was being under paid and his benefits were not what he had expected. Yes this part is hear say from a guy who works in the private sector. Sorry his income and benefits package is not subject to public viewing. As for as a grievance on classification changes, this case is before the courts. Will the lawyers make out like bandits, yes. Will the state have to back pay? Only the judge knows.
    Our oldest daughter is in her third year of law school. In several years I will have a lawyer and a teacher as children. I think the third wants to be a nurse. Just my parental opinion, but I hope nurses get paid too much too? In all seriousness, when I choose to stay home with my kids I never thought about them making a lot of money. I'm a college graduate, who choose to be a stay at home mom instead of having a career. My husband use to tell me I was under paid, just his opinion. I'm no longer called a soccer mom, instead I'm the mom who runs the dog to daily activities- hunt test training. My dog does all the work and I just stand at the line trying to look like I'm part of the team. My main job is to keep her line manners in check. Again, my husband things I do not take enough credit for our success. Do not ask the dog because she would tell you I could go sit in the truck and she would get the job done and she would not be leaving that duck on the rack for the club to use later.
    Another thread asked why are you not training the dogs? We are home because she has a hot spot and I haven't figured out how to keep it clean out in the field or how to fit her into the crate with the Elizabethan collar on.
    Marvin, do not take my post too serious, besides I think you named my dog. She is my real pride and joy, do not worry the kids already know. My husband shares my feelings about the dog, but the kids are still in the dark on that point.
    Terri

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    I'd like to hear of others experiences within the public realm!! Facts & numbers please .
    I just post this for your benefit, Terri. this is what most have been able to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by Terri View Post
    Marvin,

    Is not this whole post about opinions? The posted public incomes are the only facts, but is it too much or too little is an opinion. When you say people are over paid that is your opinion, which you have a right to have, but it does not make it a fact. How do you compare different types of jobs or similar jobs located in different states? Different jobs require different skills and training. There is more a demand for some skills and less for others. Each state has a different cost of living. Some states cost more to live in and some state cost less. The great think about this country is we have the choice to make career choices and live in any state we choice. It is a balancing act. A give and take. To make money involves a lot of factors.
    I do have a lot of pride for my son. I consider him a public employee because he works for the city as a pool manager, he is not a teacher, yet. The bargain I was referring to in my post goes to our city. Yes, it was only an opinion. It was my opinion. I also have a right to an opinion. The fact is my son makes under $14 an hour with no benefits and a staff of 40. Do you think he is making too much money? If you do not have kids, you may say yes. If you have kids and my son taught your kid to swim 25 yards in two weeks or saved your kid from drowning you might think he should get a raise. Either way it is still just an opinion.
    We live in California. I base my information about an husband's level of pay off of information we have received from state reports. The reports explained why they were phasing in raises over several years. The plain was to bring the Engineers income in line with other public agencies, cities and counties in the state. With state budget problems the cost adjustments were stopped, classifications changed, and several days off per month. The department of transportation is a specially funded agency, not part of the general fund. I think you should be able to fact check this information. To compare his income to the private sector came from information obtained from our daughter's friend who is a civil engineer working for a private company in our state. He had looked up my husband's salary, which is public information, and he couldn't believe how close their salaries where to each other. Then they had to discuss the benefits and again he told us my husband was being under paid and his benefits were not what he had expected. Yes this part is hear say from a guy who works in the private sector. Sorry his income and benefits package is not subject to public viewing. As for as a grievance on classification changes, this case is before the courts. Will the lawyers make out like bandits, yes. Will the state have to back pay? Only the judge knows.
    Our oldest daughter is in her third year of law school. In several years I will have a lawyer and a teacher as children. I think the third wants to be a nurse. Just my parental opinion, but I hope nurses get paid too much too? In all seriousness, when I choose to stay home with my kids I never thought about them making a lot of money. I'm a college graduate, who choose to be a stay at home mom instead of having a career. My husband use to tell me I was under paid, just his opinion. I'm no longer called a soccer mom, instead I'm the mom who runs the dog to daily activities- hunt test training. My dog does all the work and I just stand at the line trying to look like I'm part of the team. My main job is to keep her line manners in check. Again, my husband things I do not take enough credit for our success. Do not ask the dog because she would tell you I could go sit in the truck and she would get the job done and she would not be leaving that duck on the rack for the club to use later.
    Another thread asked why are you not training the dogs? We are home because she has a hot spot and I haven't figured out how to keep it clean out in the field or how to fit her into the crate with the Elizabethan collar on.
    Marvin, do not take my post too serious, besides I think you named my dog. She is my real pride and joy, do not worry the kids already know. My husband shares my feelings about the dog, but the kids are still in the dark on that point.
    Terri
    FYI, I do not take your post too serious except too many have your entitlement mentality. I'm here, I have a degree, now pay me! or I could add an early refrain from one of the lefty's on this forum, I went to the best schools, why isn't that recognized? It's a cruel & competitive world, the cream needs to be allowed to rise to the top. One of the really neat things in the past is that government employment was very frustrating for those with talent, hence they left & created something in the Real world.


    3 of my 4 sons are independent business people - they deal on a constant basis with those from government whose only thought is to thwart productivity as they do not recognize it! While being in the professions you claim for your family may all be honorable occupations, they are part of a group that is homogenous, hence they will never achieve their full capability because the system does not allow that. Those who may have been able to contribute to a better society that stuck around for security are getting it, but at what price? When my sons were young I told them, you do what you want to do in life, if you are good enough at it you will have all you need. Those who enter professions just for the money are condemned to a miserable life!!!!!!!!!!!

    When groups demand constant improvements in their working conditions with little to show in the way of increased output, they become expendable. All we have to do is look at the American factory worker who listened to the union boss & is now unemployed. Public employees are on that road & some bright person will figure out how to replace them with their fat contracts & fringe benefit packages .
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
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    Marvin,

    I do not know how I have an entitlement attitude. I'm pretty sure I told you my son wants to be a teacher because it is a passion. I think you poo pooed that idea. He does worry a bit about not making enough money to live on, which is only natural for most men. He could go into other fields, but he wants to do what he likes. Isn't nursing also a passion field? If you don't care to help people in need you will not last long. There is not enough money in the world you could pay me to do that job. As for as lawyers, it can be a passion. I think we have lawyers on this form that can speak of their passion for the rule of law and seeing justice carried out. The truth is we will always need nurses, teachers, and lawyers. I do not see any where that my kids are looking for a free hand out. I know we are not getting any free hand out to pay for their education. Yes, my husband works for the state, but he also has a small business, which is in the Engineering field. He makes more money per hour doing his business than he does at the state job. He took the state job and continues at it for several reasons. Raising three kids and putting them through college without government help cost a lot of money. Working so your wife can save at home with the kids, cost a man a lot of extra hard work. He enjoys staying up to date and being part of new developments that only a bigger organization can afford to offer. Designing and completing a parking lot is fun the first time, but some people need more of a challenge day after day.

    Maybe I should start a new thread.

    Do you think you make too much money at your present job? Is your benefit package over the top? Do you pay too little in state and/or federal taxes? What facts do you use that make you have that opinion?

    I have only meet one person who thought her husband made too much money. I know a lot of people would rather keep their employer health care package than have the president's health care package. I have meet people that think we all should be paying more taxes, but not one of those people were willing to write a check to the IRS to help cover the taxes for cheap entitlement minded people like me who thing my family pays too much in taxes.

    What my family has they worked for and I think that is something to be proud of. It sounds socialist to say no matter how hard you work to get an education you should make no more money than the person who did not graduate from high school because he was too busy smoking weed on the corner. Nothing wrong with making money. It should not be a dirty word. Not working hard should be the dirty word. There are a lot more lazy people than the ones who work for a government agency. Let us not forget that police, fire fighters, and the people in the military all are government employees.

    I'm no liberal, Mr Marvin.

    Now you have a nice day,

    Terri

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