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Thread: The Great myth

  1. #11
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Writing an article, and having it be true are two very different things. Unfortunately, when studies are conducted to prove pre-existing political beliefs, the results are sadly predictable. The study mentioned is widely quoted. Unfortunately, other then its original publication in a regional Federal Reserve publication, it is seldom cited outside of conservative publications seeking to bolster arguments against any government intervention in dealing with the Great Bush Recession.

    However, the article itself is a little loosy goosy. Much of its arguments begin from slower than predicted growth in employment following the beginning of Roosevelt policies. However, in concluding that employment growth was too low, the authors explicitly exclude consideration of public employment in temporary jobs with the WPA and similar programs, even though these employed 60% of those who were otherwise unemployed and produced infrastructure improvements that we continue t benefit from today.

    They discard more widely accepted theories for the severity of the Depression based on their belief that these theories do not explain why similar levels of collapse were not experienced in 1920-21 when there was a mini financial crisis involving deflation. This argument is unconvincing since arguing inconsistency with only two data points gives no real basis for evaluating any hypothesis. A better observation might be that all of our economic theories have been "proven" only within very narrow bands of economic performance, and none appears to work well in periods of economic extremes.

    Fundamentally, the authors argue that Roosevelt's policies kept wages too high for the armies of the poor living in "Hoover" cities throughout the country. Presumably, had more people been allowed to starve to death, they might have worked for less than the near starvation wages they otherwise received. Given that my father lived during that period in a single parent household earning $8/week to feed my grandmother (working 60 hours/week) and her seven children, I don't think the economic problem was workers who were earning too much.

    I do not pretend to any expertise in Depression economics. Such analyses are of primarily historical importance since the fundamental structure of our economy has changed radically. The importance of such revisionist studies does not strike me as an effort at serious economic study. Rather, it seems to be an effort to debunk the perception that government intervention can ever be productive since that undermines one of the most fervent ideological tenets of the neo-con movement. The fact that those living at the time viewed conditions as improving as a direct result of public policy and re-elected Roosevelt to an unprecedented three terms only makes the refutation more important.

    Apart from anything else, New Deal policies allowed the US to avoid the move toward fascism that overtook governments in Germany, Spain, and Italy (and would have overtaken France but for WWII). Those policies also allowed us to avoid the Communist takeover experienced in Russia. We were threatened by both and helping people to keep working and eating until the economy recovered was an important reason why.
    Writing a post, and having it be true are two very different things.

    This is your opinion, or spin, nothing more.



    RK
    stan b

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    "Don't give up.....don't ever give up!!!"
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  2. #12
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Writing a post, and having it be true are two very different things.

    This is your opinion, or spin, nothing more.



    RK
    You are absolutely right. However, I also read their original article and know, as a consequence, that all of the unemployment numbers they cite as evidence of failure exclude all people employed by the New Deal programs.

    FDR ran on a platform of putting people to work, and he did. Those people didn't starve and contributed to the non-government economy as they spent the money they earned. That is not a matter of opinion. Also, at a time when people were working for almost nothing, families were being split up because children couldn't be fed, and people were dying of exposure in tent cities, I find it hard to believe that our world would have been better off had wages fallen an additional 25%. However, that is exactly what the authors are advocating.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckheads View Post

    FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate

    o
    I feel blessed that after 80 years someone was finally born in the US that can tell us what really happened back then. Just goes to show how stupid everyone else has been for the last 8 decades.

  4. #14
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    You are absolutely right. However, I also read their original article and know, as a consequence, that all of the unemployment numbers they cite as evidence of failure exclude all people employed by the New Deal programs.

    FDR ran on a platform of putting people to work, and he did. Those people didn't starve and contributed to the non-government economy as they spent the money they earned. That is not a matter of opinion. Also, at a time when people were working for almost nothing, families were being split up because children couldn't be fed, and people were dying of exposure in tent cities, I find it hard to believe that our world would have been better off had wages fallen an additional 25%. However, that is exactly what the authors are advocating.
    My Mom & Dad lived thru that time.

    Makes me pretty grateful for all I have.
    Yet I long for what they had, for it is GONE.


    RK
    stan b

    SR-HR-UH-Field of Dreams Mr. Elvis


    "Don't give up.....don't ever give up!!!"
    Jimmy V
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    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

  5. #15
    Senior Member tom's Avatar
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    In 1930 my dad made $17.50/week working 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. And, someone thinks he should have made 25% less?!?!?

    Yet I long for what they had, for it is GONE.
    Yup,,,, they had a 1 room tarpaper shack with no running water. Life was grand!
    Last edited by tom; 10-05-2010 at 06:42 PM.
    "there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance --- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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  6. #16
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom View Post
    In 1930 my dad made $17.50/week working 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. And, someone thinks he should have made 25% less?!?!?



    Yup,,,, they had a 1 room tarpaper shack with no running water. Life was grand!
    I guess I have to explain........

    They had values, they had morals, they knew right from wrong, people cared for each other.......very rare in todays world.


    RK
    stan b

    SR-HR-UH-Field of Dreams Mr. Elvis


    "Don't give up.....don't ever give up!!!"
    Jimmy V
    __________________________________________________ ____________________

    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

  7. #17
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    I guess I have to explain........

    They had values, they had morals, they knew right from wrong, people cared for each other.......very rare in todays world.


    RK
    My parents have values and morals. My wife, kids any myself have values. My friends have values. Most all of the people I surround myself with have values and morals. Even the people I choose to hire and contract have values.

    Where do you live? I choose not to dwell on negativity, and look for the good in people. Its out there, you just have to open your eyes and mind.
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  8. #18
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    I also have to say that the people I meet on a day to day basis have strong values, work hard, and give generously. My kids and even my 7 year old granddaughter are the same. My grandson, at age 4, gets a bit of a pass, but is learning quickly. The weak link may be my own generation, the boomers who grew up in the 60's and 70's.

  9. #19
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Please put me back on ignore.
    That post is pathetic, as usual it's always about YOU and some kind of cheap shot.
    You totally missed the point, well, actually you didn't but you have to do what you do.
    Those people had tremendous character.
    Don't even think about comparing yourself to my Dad, where do YOU live?

    PLEASE put me back on ignore.........


    RK

    You need to lighten up.

    If you asked your parents or grandparents, or any generation, they would say the world is going to hell in a handbasket, politicians are morally corrupt, and the younger generation is lost!

    Get real. Do you think we're the first generation to think things are terrible?

    For some people, things are ALWAYS doom and gloom. For others, life is bliss. For most people working and getting by, life has its good days, and its bad days. Its where you choose to dwell that defines your character. I won't make any judgements, but rather let your comments speak for themselves.

    Peace--
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  10. #20
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I also have to say that the people I meet on a day to day basis have strong values, work hard, and give generously. My kids and even my 7 year old granddaughter are the same. My grandson, at age 4, gets a bit of a pass, but is learning quickly. The weak link may be my own generation, the boomers who grew up in the 60's and 70's.
    Here is a surprise, this wasn't about you or little Yardley, it was about those that lived through those times and their character.
    One could not possibly have what they had unless they lived thru those things.
    I would have to say my Dad had pretty good character, I don't see many today that match him.


    As usual, you two must pick and tear at an honest comment that meant no disrespect to anyone and huge respect for those mentioned.



    stan b
    stan b

    SR-HR-UH-Field of Dreams Mr. Elvis


    "Don't give up.....don't ever give up!!!"
    Jimmy V
    __________________________________________________ ____________________

    "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

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