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How I throw my own marks (video)

13K views 111 replies 45 participants last post by  Leddyman 
#1 ·
#5 ·
Just curious. What level have you trained in this venue (hunt or field trial). That might explain some of your approach to training.
 
#7 ·
Fred can train his dogs however he wants, no problemo, but newbies especially need to be aware that teaching a dog to switch bumpers on marks flies in the face of most retriever training. It is promoting a switch, which will get you dropped pronto in AKC. Most people train so their dog doesn't even shop a pile during yardwork, let alone carry a bumper to a mark, drop it and pick up the found one. Just a heads up for some, I'm not debating with Fred, he has his own agenda, but switching bumpers on marks is particularly questionable for someone new to retriever training to consider as standard procedure.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Ditto... times 1000!!!

For "traditional HT training" you could have the dog deliver to you, then go back to the "place mat" or pylon.... then the dog wouldn't have to drop the bumper and switch....
 
#9 ·
Hi Fred,

I do something very similar with my dog and I really enjoy it. I think it is hugely beneficial and like you say, it allows you to get lots of marks done without having to carry a whole lot of gear.

I'll make a suggestion, which you can choose to adopt or not.

Sit the dog at the cone but with nothing in his mouth....walk out and throw your mark. Release the dog with your voice. When the dog picks up the bumper, have the dog deliver to you, either in a front finish, or at your side. Take the bumper, line pup back to the cone.

You can start walking to your next spot as pup is running to the cone. I also like to put a mat down next to the cone (I use a white stickman next to a mat instead of cone...lighter weight - easier to carry, very visible) Now pup has to get on the mat and sit as he waits for your next throw.

I know folks are writing that spitting a bumper and switching to a new one is a negative. I tend to agree. I know you are probably wondering if the pup delivering to you will translate over to pup delivering to the birdboy in a hunt test. I will state that I think they know the difference and if you are the handler, they know to deliver to you whether you are at the line, or out there throwing the mark.

Good luck and thanks for the video.

Chris
 
#13 ·
Yes Chris, I believe it should be done both ways to better proof the dog. I believe it's a lot more difficult to cast and send a dog with a bumper in his mouth, then it is without one. One question in your case, I assume that when you send the dog back to his starting point after his delivery to you........I assume you use a remote drop from there?
 
#11 ·
I'm thinking of that diversion bird in a HT that is shot out in front or to the side and sometimes over the dog as he returns with a previous mark. If the dog switches ducks he's out of the test. Switching bumpers like this would be the last thing I would teach a dog. Even for a hunting scenario I wouldn't want him to switch. I usually want him to go past a diversion bird dead in the decoys for that wounded bird 50yds+ away.
JMHO.


BHB
 
#15 ·
The dog is trained to only drop the bumper at the other bumper. Believe me, this is much more difficult than it looks. Perhaps you guys need to see it on a lining drill or a 'T' type of set up. I think you guys think that he's just going to run out there and drop it and chase after whatever else is out there, or switch. Quite the opposite. It's a lot more difficult to hold a line this way, and that's why he should know both. I will do a video of a lining drill with it, and you will see that he wouldn't just go running all over creation chasing things and dropping bumpers. :) Much harder to hold a line this way.
 
#12 ·
I do alot of stand alones too, but I often will leave the dog where I receive it from picking up the mark and walk to my next station vs sending the dog back to the original line. I create a new line with each mark. I'll work a whole field this way, getting in 6-10 marks anywhere from 80-200 yards each, varying the terrain, wind & other factors. I end up back where I park so I can get the next dog out and start over. This lets me walk the line the dog is going to take to the AOF too, more or less, so I can check for hazards, save myself a trip.
 
#17 ·
It is part of T work, at least the way I was taught, to have the dog run the T with a bumper in mouth, but they are not taught to switch that bumper out for another one. I can't think of any reason to do so in retriever training, when not switching is a lesson most of us try to ingrain to our dogs. If my dog is handling, it will handle with a bumper or bird in mouth, same as without one, that's part of the drill and something I use throughout training even on older dogs as a tune up, as do many others I've trained with, including pros, just not the switching part.
 
#19 ·
I've personally seen many a judged event where the diversion bird hits the dog in the head, or lands directly under the dog's nose. In these cases, the dog has zero time to think. He just reacts. If the conditioned response in the drill as shown is to drop bumper A and pick up B, the one he just got to, it is reasonable for folks to express helpful concern to try and help you avoid trouble.
Exactly, that's where they love to throw them, time them right in front of the dog coming back and with being amped up and taken by surprise, they switch. Just because they haven't been doing diversions in SH lately, doesn't mean you don't train on them. You are training the the dog to switch on a diversion.
 
#20 ·
I agree that disciplined casting should not involve the dog spitting a bumper and picking up a different one.

I'm pretty simple-minded. So when it comes to stuff like this, I try to stay simple and condition pup that he better hold onto whatever he picked up...because if I didn't want him picking it up...he'd know it by now! And if he did pick it up, he better finish the job.
 
#22 ·
With all due respect, that is not the dog's conditioned response. If it was, I wouldn't be able to sit the dog on that bumper without dropping the one that he has in his mouth, nor would I be able to run him a million times right over that over that bumper, but still keep the one he has in his mouth and keep going. Furthermore, in the scenario you just gave me, I also wouldn't be able to have him sit there with you throwing things at his head without him dropping the one in his mouth and picking up those things that you throw. All of that would be impossible............would you like to see that as well? I assume not since you already seem to know all about my dogs conditioning, but I thought I'd throw it out there just the same. :)
 
#23 ·
Hey Fred you need a subscription to Online Retriever and a seminar to either Lardy, Evans or Roreim.

And then you will realize how little we all including you really know when it come to training dogs.
 
#26 ·
Hey Fred you need a subscription to Online Retriever and a seminar to either Lardy, Evans or Rorem.

And then you will realize how little we all including you really know when it come to training dogs.
It is entirely possible that Fred already has a subscription to Retrievers ONLINE and has my Training Retrievers Alone DVD and book wherein I show Stand Alones, Send Backs and Walk Back marks. Just sayin'.

Fred clearly has his own agenda and approach. I simply look at his stuff and then decide if there is anything I want to adopt. However, as pointed out some beginnners might adopt things that most of us would not. I wish I knew a way to keep such beginners out of trouble but I don't. I see enough bad advice on the Internet to think it is all right for experienced trainers to wave a red flag when they see something they don't like.

At least it should be OK to wave a yellow flag that says "Caution! Beware! Danger Ahead! Slow Down!

Anybody got an emoticon for a yellow flag for me?
 
#24 ·
I don't think there has been one thread of Fred's that's stayed friendly. As I read the posts all I can think is what a condescending....

If you put a video on the forum for everyone to see, people are going to weigh in on it. Do not take it so personally when they give you their honest opinion, unsolicited or not.
 
#25 ·
Absolutely amazing to witness Fred's stubborn intransigence in the face of all advice to the contrary when there is absolutely NO BENEFIT to having the dog switch bumpers and a great deal of potential (virtually guaranteed) problems from teaching your dog to drop a bumper/duck in order to pick up another one. THIS IS NEVER OK. It must be awesome to know so much that you can summarily disregard all advice given by others.

Since Fred is a self professed dog training genius and has already refused this advice from better trainers than myself on this very thread, I just want to direct this to anyone who viewed the video and wants to try training in this manner:

This is a variation on walking singles. You can do it as Fred is with the dog returning to the point of beginning or leaving the dog at the last point of delivery and walking to make the next throw. You can work your way around a huge area with just one bumper and your dog in this manner and incorporate any number of factors in a single session. I prefer leaving dog at point of last delivery because it gives the dog a moment to catch his breath while I walk 100-150 yards to throw the next mark, but either way is OK and some situations are likely more suited to the dog returning to his "place" before each mark. The mechanics of what Fred is doing are OK except that it is NEVER a good idea to have the dog drop one retrieving object for the sole purpose of picking up another one.

Lest anyone bring up the possibility of a dog needing to drop a dead duck to pick up a cripple, there are simply better ways to go about making that happen that by training this way. First, direct your dog to pick up the cripple in the first place. This is poison bird training and is needed in "advanced" hunt tests anyway. If by some chance your dog was retrieving a dead duck (already in mouth) and you saw another that you thought was dead begin to swim away you could either let the dog finish returning to you and then send for the cripple or sit the dog immediately, tell him to drop (remote drop must have been taught) and then handle to the cripple. Most likely if the dog was already returning with the bird in its mouth I would probably allow it to deliver the bird before sending for the cripple in this somewhat rare scenario. Switching is reputed to be a very hard habit to break (never had a dog who was allowed to switch, so I don't know) so it would be best to avoid anything that would tend to create the habit and this is what this method does. It seems that this would also cause a dog (as another poster suggested) to begin the habit of "shopping the pile," which isn't as hazardous as "switching" in a real hunting or hunt test scenario, but is certainly an annoying, time-wasting habit in training with pile work (I do have experience "shopping" unfortunately).

Fred, do you know what a "Phase 2" trainer is?
 
#28 ·
Do you come on here to teach or to learn or to brag? So, why do you have to throw your own marks?

BHB
 
#31 ·
LOL, I left a comment on Fred's video saying that I didn't think it was a good idea to have the dog switch bumpers. I was doing it as a public service so he wouldn't delude any poor saps who might buy into that portion of his "technique." He deleted the comment and blocked me from further comments. NICE.
 
#33 ·
LOL, I left a comment on Fred's video saying that I didn't think it was a good idea to have the dog switch bumpers. I was doing it as a public service so he wouldn't delude any poor saps who might buy into that portion of his "technique." He deleted the comment and blocked me from further comments. NICE.
He blocks anyone that disagrees with him on his videos. He blocks people on here also. He only wants attention. I would suggest doing what Chris says and ignore him. He won't read this unless someone quotes me because I am blocked.
 
#34 ·
Step away from the keyboard....step away....
 
#36 ·
I keep thinking of the Farmer/Aycock video where Danny talkes about three levels of trainers. I believe that Fred may be stuck in level 2. Just sayin

Jon
 
#41 ·
Dennis if you read this just wanted to thank you for your efforts in publishing online retriever. Also, I really enjoy when you and Ted have your discussions. They really get me thinking. Always look forward to getting it in the mail. Thanks again.
 
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