CC to "sit" question
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Thread: CC to "sit" question

  1. #1
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    Default CC to "sit" question

    I have watched videos by Evan Graham, Chris Akin, and Hillman. I know Hillman's approach is different so I am mainly asking about the other two. I do like Hillman's approach. But I am trying to distinguish between these methods. If I interpret Graham and Akin correctly in there sequence of collar conditioning I believe they complete here and heal, but not sit until later in the process. Ie. Akin's video on Duck Dog Basics introduces cc to sit near the end of video, well after OB, FF, formal training. Graham goes in to depth on cc's to sit in his Basic Handling right after Casting. Is there a reason behind waiting, or am I interpreting this wrong. Some other posts indicate that people cc'd to sit during OB, I assume meaning they cc'd to sit earlier than when introduced in the two videos mentioned. I understand follow a program, etc. I am just wondering why the difference, what the reason is, or if I am interpreting this wrong. Thanks in advance.

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    I think you've got CC to sit vs. learning the whistle sit in relation to pile/t-work confused. CC to sit always happens during formal OB, though Hillmann starts introducing very light CC earlier with his pups.

    CC to 'Sit' in formal OB is always when the dog is heeling beside you or coming towards you. The whistle sit you are referring to being taught by Akin, Graham, etc later in training is for when the dog is going away from you. The dog is learning this in preparation to running blinds. He has to not only sit, but turn and face you. Evan Graham, Danny Farmer, Mike Lardy(if needed) use a check cord to make the dog turn and face you when he sits.
    Last edited by bamajeff; 01-05-2017 at 12:52 PM.

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    Senior Member Lynn Hanigan's Avatar
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    You have identified the biggest flaw in all the training videos currently on the market.
    They tell you what to do but don’t tell you why they do it that way nor do they discuss the potential pitfalls with certain techniques.
    CC to sit to early can lead the dog to deciding that sitting any time he feels the collar, solves all his problems. Consequently he will sit regardless of the command he hears, sometimes refusing to move at all.
    If you CC to here, kennel up and heel before cc to sit this problem never comes up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn Hanigan View Post
    CC to sit to early can lead the dog to deciding that sitting any time he feels the collar, solves all his problems. Consequently he will sit regardless of the command he hears, sometimes refusing to move at all.
    If you CC to here, kennel up and heel before cc to sit this problem never comes up.
    I've never had this happen, though I can see how it could happen. I have one now whose escape mechanism is to run towards me as fast as he can when being corrected(especially around water). Maybe the effect of being conditioned to 'here' first? This dog wasn't started by me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn Hanigan View Post
    You have identified the biggest flaw in all the training videos currently on the market.
    They tell you what to do but don’t tell you why they do it that way nor do they discuss the potential pitfalls with certain techniques.
    CC to sit to early can lead the dog to deciding that sitting any time he feels the collar, solves all his problems. Consequently he will sit regardless of the command he hears, sometimes refusing to move at all.
    If you CC to here, kennel up and heel before cc to sit this problem never comes up.
    Lynn,

    Isn't it also true that if the pup is CC'd on here then the vice versa can happen which as soon as the pup feels pressure he comes in?
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    On the other hand, collar conditioning to sit first, as Lardy does, encourages stability to to nick and prevents the dog from wanting to come to you every time he feels the nick.

    So there is a difference and reasons that flow with the rest of the program. This is a reason for an inexperienced trainer to stick with one program so all the pieces fit together.
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    Senior Member Lynn Hanigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A team View Post
    Lynn,

    Isn't it also true that if the pup is CC'd on here then the vice versa can happen which as soon as the pup feels pressure he comes in?
    Yes but it is very easy to fix
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjack View Post
    On the other hand, collar conditioning to sit first, as Lardy does, encourages stability to to nick and prevents the dog from wanting to come to you every time he feels the nick.

    So there is a difference and reasons that flow with the rest of the program. This is a reason for an inexperienced trainer to stick with one program so all the pieces fit together.
    This is how I've started the dogs I've worked with and haven't had the issue with sitting/freezing when nicked. The only reason I would consider CC'ing to 'Here' would be for safety of the pup if he was a runner.

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    The sticky to CC issue is one for pointing dogs also. You will see many pointing dog trainers use a belly collar for whoa drills. This is not really useful for you retriever people (see reason 3) but maybe the why is. Reason 1 is simply to move the collar behind the dog so the bird in front is not associated with the e-collar behind. Prevents bird shyness from CC to whoa. Reason 2 is that it is easy for the dog to distinguish the belly collar from the here conditioning done earlier. Usually belly collar work is still done on check cord and the dog at the introductory phase and thus the here is not an issue but the correction is different enough it prevents the recall or here from being the dog's reaction. Mind you the pressure is introduced with flat standard collar or half hitch or whoa post from the belly before the e-collar. Reason 3 is it naturally pushes the rump up a bit, helping to prevent the desire to sit with pressure for those dogs that were over drilled on sit as puppies. Anyway, not really super useful as it is a very different thing, but maybe the why helps. I have trained with and without belly collars depending on the dogs temperament and ability to think during light correction.
    Dogs collar conditioned to stop on pressure will tend to resist a change to move. Dogs collar conditioned to recall (move) on pressure will tend to dance or spin on pressure of same type when asked later to stop. For field trial pointing dogs spins and foot dancing has you out. "Thanks for your time, you may pick up your dog!"
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    Senior Member Terry Marshall's Avatar
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    Once you have taught the commands...and only thereafter.... use a NICK for sit/stay and a constant for HERE.....Should be zero confusion and the here when combined w a whistle should be automatic...All of this should be elementary if you have done some solid basic obedience training....TOO many pass this step
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