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Thread: S&P Affirms US AAA Rating, Cuts Outlook to Negative

  1. #71
    Senior Member M&K's Retrievers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    What the Sam Hill are you talking about??? Fixed that one for you.

    Can't have a disagreement without crying to mommy? I thought that was your job.

    Red triangle me if you want. Geez! I pointed out that many megayachts are made overseas. You countered with a particular brand. I showed, (from your link) that even THEY make big boats overseas.

    What is too difficult for you to handle? That you may be wrong once in a while. I never said they didn't make boats in WI. I just said they make some overseas, too. No, it sounded to me that Stan was wrong and that they only made them abroad. You were correcting him.

    And what's that last line? A threat? I don't think that's smiled upon here. You made a threat recently to stay on the main forum but apparently no can do.


    Keep it civil. You remember anyone making that plea?
    Just give it a rest for a while.

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  2. #72
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&K's Retrievers View Post
    Just give it a rest for a while.
    yes ma'am....
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  3. #73
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    You said you read the charts and understood them fully. I'll take your word for that. I'll also let people figure out for themselves why you claimed the numbers I gave were outrageous, citing a chart that very clearly supported my numbers. Personally, I believe that you DID read the chart and clearly understood its meaning. I don't understand why yoou thought you could get away with using such a supportive chart of my figures to claim that my figures were outrageous.

    Lets go back to the original statement that I was discussing.

    Originally Posted by caryalsobrook
    You want an answer without using the term "class warfare", then I will give you one. The top 1% wage earners(and that includes savings, investment, and entrepaneurship) pay more tax than the bottom 90%!!!

    So, I posted a table that indicated the following:

    Total Federal Tax Liability

    Top 1% = 28.1%
    Top 10% = 55%

    Bottom 90% = 100% - 55% = 45%

    Last time I checked, the following was true:

    45% > 28.1%

    So the statement that the top 1% pays more than the bottom 90% is not proved out by these numbers. It does have the makings of an excellent political talking point though.

    I have some great data on the percent of total income that the top 1% takes home. It is just as I thought. But I'm going to go get my beauty sleep. My wife thinks I really need it.
    Last edited by Buzz; 04-19-2011 at 11:13 PM.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Lets go back to the original statement that I was discussing.




    So, I posted a table that indicated the following:

    Total Federal Tax Liability

    Top 1% = 28.1%
    Top 10% = 55%

    Bottom 90% = 100% - 55% = 45%

    Last time I checked, the following was true:

    45% > 28.1%

    So the statement that the top 1% pays more than the bottom 90% is not proved out by these numbers. It does have the makings of an excellent political talking point though.

    I have some great data on the percent of total income that the top 1% takes home. It is just as I thought. But I'm going to go get my beauty sleep. My wife thinks I really need it.
    Cant you get it through your head that the total tax liability includes corporate tax liability??? The last time I looked, the bottom 90% didn't pay the corp tax. For whatever reasons you spew out such false numbers, it matters not to me. But I will call you out when you try to convince people on this forum that they are anything other than distortions or lies.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Cant you get it through your head that the total tax liability includes corporate tax liability??? The last time I looked, the bottom 90% didn't pay the corp tax. For whatever reasons you spew out such false numbers, it matters not to me. But I will call you out when you try to convince people on this forum that they are anything other than distortions or lies.
    Pertaining to the bolded text, thanks for implying that you're dealing with a moron who does not understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to put out distortions and lies. I'm trying to enlighten people on the distortions and lies that folks on the right are spreading. When I see numbers getting thrown around, I have this awful habit of going, hmmm, I wonder how they arrived at that?

    Rather than looking at the whole federal tax picture, you insist on presenting the numbers in such a way that wealthier Americans would look more heavily taxed than they are. You want to point to the fact that they pay 57% of the corporate tax and ignore that corporate tax makes up a small portion of total federal revenue. To put what I'm saying into an example...

    This is how each tax shakes out as a portion of total federal revenue:



    I don't have the numbers from 2007, but to demonstrate how you figure out what portion of total federal revenue that the top 1% pays I'll use the 2008 numbers from the pie chart with the numbers from the table I linked to.

    This is the share of each tax the top 1% paid in 2007:
    Federal income taxes: 39.5 percent share
    Federal payroll taxes: 4.1 percent share
    Federal corporate taxes: 57.0 percent share
    Federal excise taxes: 4.7 percent share

    From the pie chart we know what percentage each category contributed to total federal revenue in 2008:
    Individual income tax: 45 percent share
    Payroll tax: 36 percent share
    Corporate tax: 12 percent share
    Excise tax: 3 percent share

    So, using these numbers, how do we figure the share that the top 1% contributes toward the total federal revenue???

    .395(45) + .041(36) + .57(12) + .047(3) = 17.775 + 1.476 + 6.84 + .141 = 26.232%

    Hmmm, not too far off from the CBO number showing that they paid a 28.1% share of total revenue in 2007.

    And you want to ignore the fact that the percentage of total taxes that they pay is not too far off from the portion of total income that they receive, as shown by the graph below. I got it from:

    http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-...comes-2008.pdf

    You want to point your finger at the fact that the share of total federal revenue they pay has been increasing steadily since 1979. Well look at what their share of the total earnings did. Have you considered that the share of revenue that the lower income folks pay is dropping because their share of the total income is dropping too?

    This is becoming boring. You keep trying to show that I'm wrong. Hope you don't mind if I just chuckle and ignore it.
    (Just kidding. I at least appreciate that you address the substance of my posts instead of throwing sand in the sandbox!)

    Last edited by Buzz; 04-20-2011 at 09:31 AM.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Pertaining to the bolded text, thanks for implying that you're dealing with a moron who does not understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to put out distortions and lies. I'm trying to enlighten people on the distortions and lies that folks on the right are spreading. When I see numbers getting thrown around, I have this awful habit of going, hmmm, I wonder how they arrived at that?

    Rather than looking at the whole federal tax picture, you insist on presenting the numbers in such a way that wealthier Americans would look more heavily taxed than they are. You want to point to the fact that they pay 57% of the corporate tax and ignore that corporate tax makes up a small portion of total federal revenue. To put what I'm saying into an example...

    This is how each tax shakes out as a portion of total federal revenue:



    I don't have the numbers from 2007, but to demonstrate how you figure out what portion of total federal revenue that the top 1% pays I'll use the 2008 numbers from the pie chart with the numbers from the table I linked to.

    This is the share of each tax the top 1% paid in 2007:
    Federal income taxes: 39.5 percent share
    Federal payroll taxes: 4.1 percent share
    Federal corporate taxes: 57.0 percent share
    Federal excise taxes: 4.7 percent share

    From the pie chart we know what percentage each category contributed to total federal revenue in 2008:
    Individual income tax: 45 percent share
    Payroll tax: 36 percent share
    Corporate tax: 12 percent share
    Excise tax: 3 percent share

    So, using these numbers, how do we figure the share that the top 1% contributes toward the total federal revenue???

    .395(45) + .041(36) + .57(12) + .047(3) = 17.775 + 1.476 + 6.84 + .141 = 26.232%

    Hmmm, not too far off from the CBO number showing that they paid a 28.1% share of total revenue in 2007.

    And you want to ignore the fact that the percentage of total taxes that they pay is not too far off from the portion of total income that they receive, as shown by the graph below. I got it from:

    http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-...comes-2008.pdf

    You want to point your finger at the fact that the share of total federal revenue they pay has been increasing steadily since 1979. Well look at what their share of the total earnings did. Have you considered that the share of revenue that the lower income folks pay is dropping because their share of the total income is dropping too?

    This is becoming boring. You keep trying to show that I'm wrong. Hope you don't mind if I just chuckle and ignore it.
    (Just kidding. I at least appreciate that you address the substance of my posts instead of throwing sand in the sandbox!)

    No you said my figures were false and you were then and still are wrong.
    Go back to the post immediately before this one. You will see that you said

    "Bottom 90%= 100%-55%=45%" I am assuming the 45% is the share you are claiming that the bottom 90% pays of the total tax bill. Again so much BS. Look at the charts you originally cited to show my figures wrong . LOOK AT THE INCOME TAX BURDEN SHOWINT THE TOTAL OF ALL INCOME TAXES. You are right to say that the share of all income tax paid by the top 1% is a litt over 28%, but as usual your attempt to compute the share of the bottom 90% as paying 45% is rediculous and is such a mathematical error such that an 8th grader should know better. LOOK AT THE TABLES!!! the share of total tax paid by the bottom 89% is EXACTLY 14.4%, half of what the top 1% pays.
    Again, I will let those on this forum who read these posts decide the reason you give such false figures. And again I will point out that I am using the figures that you originally stated as showing my figures to be wrong.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Pertaining to the bolded text, thanks for implying that you're dealing with a moron who does not understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to put out distortions and lies. I'm trying to enlighten people on the distortions and lies that folks on the right are spreading. When I see numbers getting thrown around, I have this awful habit of going, hmmm, I wonder how they arrived at that?

    Rather than looking at the whole federal tax picture, you insist on presenting the numbers in such a way that wealthier Americans would look more heavily taxed than they are. You want to point to the fact that they pay 57% of the corporate tax and ignore that corporate tax makes up a small portion of total federal revenue. To put what I'm saying into an example...

    This is how each tax shakes out as a portion of total federal revenue:



    I don't have the numbers from 2007, but to demonstrate how you figure out what portion of total federal revenue that the top 1% pays I'll use the 2008 numbers from the pie chart with the numbers from the table I linked to.

    This is the share of each tax the top 1% paid in 2007:
    Federal income taxes: 39.5 percent share
    Federal payroll taxes: 4.1 percent share
    Federal corporate taxes: 57.0 percent share
    Federal excise taxes: 4.7 percent share

    From the pie chart we know what percentage each category contributed to total federal revenue in 2008:
    Individual income tax: 45 percent share
    Payroll tax: 36 percent share
    Corporate tax: 12 percent share
    Excise tax: 3 percent share

    So, using these numbers, how do we figure the share that the top 1% contributes toward the total federal revenue???

    .395(45) + .041(36) + .57(12) + .047(3) = 17.775 + 1.476 + 6.84 + .141 = 26.232%

    Hmmm, not too far off from the CBO number showing that they paid a 28.1% share of total revenue in 2007.

    And you want to ignore the fact that the percentage of total taxes that they pay is not too far off from the portion of total income that they receive, as shown by the graph below. I got it from:

    http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-...comes-2008.pdf

    You want to point your finger at the fact that the share of total federal revenue they pay has been increasing steadily since 1979. Well look at what their share of the total earnings did. Have you considered that the share of revenue that the lower income folks pay is dropping because their share of the total income is dropping too?

    This is becoming boring. You keep trying to show that I'm wrong. Hope you don't mind if I just chuckle and ignore it.
    (Just kidding. I at least appreciate that you address the substance of my posts instead of throwing sand in the sandbox!)

    I know of no other way to explain simpler the facts, so you can have the last word and those who read these posts can decide who distorted the facts.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...O8D_story.html

    Rest easy, the politicians have a plan!

    "
    Treasury officials told S&P analysts that they were underestimating the ability of politicians in Washington to fashion a compromise to curb deficits, a Treasury official said. They argued a change in ratings was not needed at this time because the debt was manageable and the administration had a viable plan in the works, the official said."

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The only plan they have is in trying to get reelected!
    Changing the Presidential Debates to allow Liberty on the stage will change America. You can help. Go to Our America's Debate Challenge to learn how you can help.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    No you said my figures were false and you were then and still are wrong.
    Go back to the post immediately before this one. You will see that you said

    "Bottom 90%= 100%-55%=45%" I am assuming the 45% is the share you are claiming that the bottom 90% pays of the total tax bill. Again so much BS. Look at the charts you originally cited to show my figures wrong . LOOK AT THE INCOME TAX BURDEN SHOWINT THE TOTAL OF ALL INCOME TAXES. You are right to say that the share of all income tax paid by the top 1% is a litt over 28%, but as usual your attempt to compute the share of the bottom 90% as paying 45% is rediculous and is such a mathematical error such that an 8th grader should know better. LOOK AT THE TABLES!!! the share of total tax paid by the bottom 89% is EXACTLY 14.4%, half of what the top 1% pays.
    Again, I will let those on this forum who read these posts decide the reason you give such false figures. And again I will point out that I am using the figures that you originally stated as showing my figures to be wrong.

    When I look at the tables, I see that the bottom 3 quintiles pay 14.4%. (at least they did in 2007)

    Bottom quintile = 0.8%
    Second quintile = 4.4%
    Third quintile = 9.2%

    Sum of bottom 3 quintiles = 0.8 + 4.4 + 9.2 = 14.4%

    When I get home I'll have my 6th grader check my work. She's advanced for her age so she might be up to snuff with the average 8th grader!
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  10. #80
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...O8D_story.html

    Rest easy, the politicians have a plan!

    "
    Treasury officials told S&P analysts that they were underestimating the ability of politicians in Washington to fashion a compromise to curb deficits, a Treasury official said. They argued a change in ratings was not needed at this time because the debt was manageable and the administration had a viable plan in the works, the official said."

    Isn't that just a hoot! If anything S&P is OVER-estimating the politicans

    Gee, think it was Treasury who was saying "OMG! OMG!"

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    The only plan they have is in trying to get reelected!
    Got that one right! And now O has called together the heavy hitters to get working on that immigration reform.

    That ought to keep them all busy so that around this time next year they'll be debating about funding the 2012 budget ... as last year when they spent valuable time with the health care bill and just "overlooked" funding the budget. Deja vu?
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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