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Thread: Vocal at Line Correction, My Version

  1. #1
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Default Vocal at Line Correction, My Version

    Vocal Dog at the Line Correction, road kill style
    People who contributed;
    Evan Graham, Randy Bohn, Chris Atkinson, Lanse Brown, Susan Bledsoe, Bon Malari, Ted Shih, Rich Pyka and finally Janie Hoctel and Dwayne Durant!
    These people gave me advice and more importantly encouragement during this process, thanks.
    Janie and Dwayne took us the final yard.
    A couple people suggested that I would never fix it and I should get rid of Elvis, he will never make it.
    I won't say he has "made it" yet in terms of titles, but we are on our way now.

    Those of us that have had to deal with this know the frustration and heartbreak that goes with this issue.
    It is a little more complex to me than some think.
    I am of the belief that though we contribute to the problem, more often than not there are genetics involved.
    Every noisy dog in history is in Elvis’ pedigree, well almost.
    Add to that "HANDLER ERROR" and the issue worsens before we even know it!
    I think this trait is the result of ANXIETY!

    The fix is not easy and requires a strong will and dedication.

    Steps;

    #1—This is very hard…..STOP RUNNING TESTS!(last season Elvis passed a SH and I shut him down to fix this problem)
    #2—This is hard…..STOP RUNNING MULTIPLE MARKS!!(singles—singles—singles)
    #3—Develop a standard!!—SIT means SIT!! This is key!
    #4—Do NOT use the collar for this( I beleive the e-collar creates more anxiety and noise), use a healing stick, you control the correction level.
    (if you nick a dog with the collar at a high enough level, what does the dog do?
    He makes a noise.
    Using a stimulus that you already know creates that kind of tendency (noise) seems a foolish way to stop noise, doesn't it?
    If the dog gets out in front going to the line, whack his azz and make him sit….and I mean WHACK HIS AZZ!!
    Don’t nag------COMMAND!!
    #5—When you get to the line and get ready to run a mark (did I mention a single?) if he makes noise, pick the bird up while correcting for quiet.
    Don’t put the dog in the truck, he ain’t learning in the truck.
    Pull him off the line at first and come back up.
    Eventually you can just pick the bird up and rerun.
    Use the healing stick for sit so the dog is worrying about sitting and the correction rather than noise.
    Run a single mark with total quiet.
    No duck call, no shots at the line and no noise at the launch station.
    Total quiet.
    When the dog runs a silent mark PRAISE the hell out of him, I mean treat that dog like you just won the Master National or the biggest trial ever!
    Then run another one quietly (a single), if he is quiet PRAISE the hell out of him!!
    (we actually had darn near everyone in the club come over and make a big fuss about his being quiet).
    Keep doing this until you get a quiet run (did I mention PRAISE the hell out of him?).
    Now you have a standard, or a baseline for the dog to reference.
    This is key.
    Don't try again, acheive success and put him away on a positive note.
    Remember---PATIENCE!!!
    Anything other than a quiet mark gets a correction.
    This may take time, you didn’t get here over night!
    I mean a long time.

    If he makes noise on the (SINGLE) mark, pick it up and run again!
    Start to add a shot, then a call at the station, then gently call at the line.
    If he is quiet, PRAISE the hell out of him.
    If he is not, pick the bird up and take a stimulus away and run again, quietly.
    When he runs quietly, PRAISE the hell out of him.
    All the time reinforcing the standard that we have set----and he knows the command-Quiet and he becomes steady.

    #6—Do other drills than marks around people, generally these dogs are hi-rollers and want to learn and play and run.
    Then run complicated drills and start to challenge the dog.
    Marks, for a great marker, I believe get boring.
    Make him think!

    Evan Graham often states that dogs are “situational learners.”
    They develop expectations.
    Change them, change up routines, challenge the dogs intellect, they will surprise you!!
    At this point, all they know is they are going to get the ultimate prize, a retrieve, and no matter how they behave we will give it to them!
    BUT.......when you go back to set ups, do EVERYTHING exactly the same every time!
    (smart azzez!!!)

    #7—If you stick to this, for months, you will win!
    All of a sudden you will see an improvement in line manners, if you hold to the standard.

    No bird with noise (the ultimate correction), bird and massive PRAISE when compliance to the standard is achieved.

    One more thing, if you want your dog to be quiet, stop YELLING at him.
    Trust me, he can hear you, I actually whisper now, so he has to concentrate on listening, not making noise.
    When I whisper "Elvis," there he was.....GONE!!!

    #8—The hardest part……..in our case, after several months of nothing but steadiness and noise corrections he was exemplary.
    Many people were amazed and commented on his improvement.
    Ran tests where he was silent on each series.
    Judges that knew him were amazed.
    #9--Often over looked-- SLOW DOWN!!

    All of a sudden one day at training he erupted again because he had to wait.
    It hit the fan and we had a 4 round main event.
    He took round 1, had me early in round 2....then I got him!!
    (this is tongue in cheek)
    It needed to be established who the Alpha was in the pack.
    (this is not tongue in cheek)
    It was (and MUST be) established, and Elvis found out he ain’t the Alpha.

    Since then……he is quiet at the line.
    He barked one bark one time at a shot flyer in training.
    He has gone from 100% out of control at the line (actually failed an AKC JH because of noise) to 95% silent and very much under control.

    Needed;
    Patience
    A Standard
    Quiet commands
    Iron Will
    Consistency
    Understanding training partners
    Healing stick
    PRAISE


    Not needed;
    E-Collar (creates even more anxiety)
    Severe punishment
    Erratic administration of standard
    Yelling


    This is not a 100% correction, it is in his genes.
    WE will always have to watch for this and continue to set and hold the standard.

    This is not easy, it is ongoing and in my opinion, it is not entirely your fault.
    I am not sure if this will work for every dog, it worked for mine.
    It took about 8 months.

    I sincerely wish you all the best in this endeavor!!
    As does everyone else who ever had to deal with this.

    I want to add something……do not even think about where anyone else’s dog is in training!
    It is irrelevant to you, you have to focus on you and your dog and what your teams goal is, nothing else matters!!!
    This is not a quick fix, you must endeavor to persevere!!
    You must NOT give up!!!
    You must stay the course!!!
    This must be adhered to every time you train.

    I have added a visit on occasion to doggy day care.
    It has helped Elvis anyway, be more settled around other dogs.

    Good Luck!!

    Team Elvis

    Disclaimer: I am not an expert on dog training, I have NO credentials or "pelts" of consequence.
    I am just a guy that was to stupid to give up on my dog and I understand that this process is lengthy and difficult and maybe outside the box, if you stick to it YOU can win!!

    I have reposted/bumped this post because someone at a HT this passed weekend asked me too.

    I have added a couple more things as well.
    BTW--we have been proofing this issue for a few weeks.
    We now approach the line proudly and fearlessly.
    I know we have to watch for this issue everyday, but we are on the same page now.
    WE are running at the HRC finished level and MH tests this summer.
    I am confident we are ready!
    At least we can get to the line and have a chance!!!!!!
    Last edited by road kill; 05-22-2013 at 09:25 AM.
    Stan b & Elvis

  2. #2
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post

    Team Elvis

    Disclaimer: I am not an expert on dog training, I have NO credentials.
    I am just a guy that was to stupid to give up on my dog and I understand that this process is lengthy and difficult and maybe outside the box, if you stick to it YOU can win!!
    Team Elvis,

    You are an expert now! You've dedicated yourself to fixing your own problem, and you are winning!

    The easy thing too do is to get another dog, but you chose invest a lot of HARD WORK instead. Congratulations on a job well done.

    You have made a very good post ....as I have one of these models myself. I agree that it is mostly due to ANXIETY ANXIETY ANXIETY.

    You cannot take any short cuts to cure this problem.

    Other good points are:

    The fix is not easy and requires a strong will and dedication.
    Stop running tests.
    Do not use the collar it will only amp them up.
    Do other drills than marks.
    Challenge the dog with something other than marks.
    Don't YELL.
    Patience
    Praise
    Not needed: anything that creates anxiety

    A couple of pointers from my experience:

    Learn to teach the dog PATIENCE (which means obedience, obedience, obedience and more obedience, sitting, sitting, sitting and more sitting) You might train all day and throw one or two marks that he is allowed to pick up.

    Dogs like this are high energy and need to release it in some way.....NOT MARKING TESTS!!! They can already mark. Take them roading, fishing, swimming behind the boat, biking, skiijoring, roller blading or anywhere you go. BE CREATIVE.

    They do not need to sit in a kennel all day and then be expected to SIT and be quiet. Let them have a release FIRST, then some obedience, then another release. It's kind of why we let first graders out for recess BEFORE an important lesson.

    Good luck and keep up the good work ELVIS!

    Tammy and Rip!

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    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Way to go Stan! Keep up the good work with old Elvis... Nothing better than seeing your hard work pay off.
    Bill Davis

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    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Congrats to you Stan...you did the work..sounds like you and Elvis had a meeting of the minds...Sure would like to see him enter a Qual next spring
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

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    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    I did not post this for any accolades to a dog and handler who have not acheived much yet.
    But nothing could be acheived until this issue was corrected.

    I posted this because of another thread, my response and the subsequent pm's I got.
    There is a sense of desperation and hopelessness when dealing with this issue, I know!!

    I just shared how I approached it with this dog.
    In this case, this approach was successful.
    If it helps 1 dog, AWESOME!!!

    I have learned a lot through this process.

    In the words of Jimmy V "don't give up, don't ever give up!"


    RK
    Last edited by road kill; 07-19-2011 at 10:59 AM.
    Stan b & Elvis

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    Senior Member Marty Lee's Avatar
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    Just curious.....do you and Elvis hunt? or just play the games?
    Marty Lee
    HRCH Daisey's Rambunctious Rascal "Rambo"
    Co-Owner HRCH Summers Gusty Breeze "Gussie"

  7. #7
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Lee View Post
    Just curious.....do you and Elvis hunt? or just play the games?

    WE hunt, first and foremost!
    We live for Ducks and Pheasants!!!

    But we do like to play the games.
    HRC has become our preference but we run AKC and we are planning a road trip to MN to run NAHRA which is where we started with him.


    RK
    Stan b & Elvis

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    Senior Member Kasomor's Avatar
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    Thank you for posting.

    One question. When are you praising??? Perhaps a stupid question.

    There are some trainers who believe in praise after the dog has returned to you or praise when the dog picks up the bird in the field or while still at the line when the dog is quiet before you release him.

    Obviously when the whole club came for the praise session it was after Elvis was back to you...but when do YOU praise??

    And congratulations on your success. You learned so much in the process of getting a quiet dog. You would have lost that if you had washed him out.
    ~ Linda ~
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    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    CH Westerlea's Kasomor Trio SH WCX CDX
    OTCH CH Kasomor's Wack 'Em N Stack 'Em SH WCX

  9. #9
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasomor View Post
    Thank you for posting.

    One question. When are you praising??? Perhaps a stupid question.

    There are some trainers who believe in praise after the dog has returned to you or praise when the dog picks up the bird in the field or while still at the line when the dog is quiet before you release him.

    Obviously when the whole club came for the praise session it was after Elvis was back to you...but when do YOU praise??

    And congratulations on your success. You learned so much in the process of getting a quiet dog. You would have lost that if you had washed him out.
    I have subsequently learned to praise him all the time, he is my boy!!

    But during that process it was after mark & return.
    If he was quiet he got praise.

    Couple things;
    When I release him, you might maybe hear a yelp

    This process changed my whole approach, he gets praised all the time, at 6'4 and 225# I get odd looks yellin "GOOD DAWG!!!", but he makes me happy, why shouldn't he be happy!
    These animals live to please, let them know when they do!!

    RK
    Stan b & Elvis

  10. #10
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Good Boys! Stan & Elvis!

    Stay the course!

    I know you didn't want the praise, but giving it is my decision!
    Susan

    FC Tribute to Justice, JH "Honor"
    FC AFC Contempt of Court "Ruckus"
    Medal Of Honor, QAA "Valor"
    HRCH Kirby's High Sierra, SH, QAA "Kirby"
    HRCH Niki Snowbird, SH, QAA "Niki"
    Southland Order In the Court, QAA "Gavel" July 17, 2002- March 24, 2013
    Southland Rusty Nail - derby points, qual placements "Rusty"
    www.justiceretrievers.com

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