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Thread: Force Fetch Video, How we doing, Suggestions Needed

  1. #1
    Senior Member Kirkd's Avatar
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    Default Force Fetch Video, How we doing, Suggestions Needed

    This is Sandy's first day on force fetch. We have been working on hold for the past week or so. I normally put my dogs with a pro at this point but I am trying Sandy on my own. Let me know what you think.

    First Session
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ46MuH2l74

    Second Session 9/1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp5C5WRi_0w

    3rd Session 9/3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvm2sOfcE2c

    4th Session 9/4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SmPV1ltH4s

    4th Session -- " ON THE GROUND"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9yaFXbnseA

    9-6 Session
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuObbteIGMI

    9-9 Session, 2 sessions about 20 minutes apart put together in one video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ZAcqITjQ4

    9-14 Session
    http://vimeo.com/29075823

    9-28 Session
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWBOuEMnB9U

    9-30 Session Lets make it fun today per suggestion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFsjNBKM9Ao

    10-4 Session
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?
    v=F4T81jLWABM


    10-6 Session
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmY2rs-1g5A

    10-8 Session
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgJni5YSSGw
    Last edited by Kirkd; 10-08-2011 at 07:45 AM. Reason: added video

  2. #2
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    It looks very good to me. The only comment I would make, is that with my pup I did not use the command "hold". My pup just finished FF with Sharon Potter, and from the beginning when the dummy or dowel was placed in his mouth he was expected to hold it. We did not introduce a new command. Your dog acts and reacts a lot like my pup. Willing and able. I can not say enough about Sharon's work with my dog. When we went to the field using ducks, the pup did his job superbly. Part of his table work was learning to sit on pick up, and it has carried over beautifully. I could not be more pleased. This pup is better with his birds than either of my older dogs. I guess it does pay to use experience when you have it available!
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
    Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, JH
    http://newhoperetrievers.com

  3. #3
    Senior Member Kirkd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    It looks very good to me. The only comment I would make, is that with my pup I did not use the command "hold". My pup just finished FF with Sharon Potter, and from the beginning when the dummy or dowel was placed in his mouth he was expected to hold it. We did not introduce a new command. Your dog acts and reacts a lot like my pup. Willing and able. I can not say enough about Sharon's work with my dog. When we went to the field using ducks, the pup did his job superbly. Part of his table work was learning to sit on pick up, and it has carried over beautifully. I could not be more pleased. This pup is better with his birds than either of my older dogs. I guess it does pay to use experience when you have it available!
    So you do not use the hold command? Or once you move to ff you drop it then?

    thanks

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    That was an exceptional first session. And, while it’s not the technique I prefer overall, it’s clear you’ve done an excellent job of preparing this dog for the work. I’m especially pleased with the fact you so consistently praise genuinely for compliance. Most men are poor at this.

    Your fundamental obedience appears plenty good enough that she doesn’t need to be tied up. She sat firmly with no squirming at all, and showed a good solid hold. I would like to take this opportunity to mention some reasons why my procedure varies from what you're doing, and provide you with some rationale to consider.

    I only use tables to save my aging back. I do not lash them to chains or poles, but rather rely on sound obedience work prior to beginning FF work. For the majority of my forcing I sit on a plastic bucket with the dog close to me at my side.

    In your clip, note that as soon as the bumper is in the dog’s mouth you completely release the dog from your physical control. I’ll post a clip here showing my technique, which includes not really pinching the dog’s ear, but rather holding the ear flap between my thumb and forefinger and pressing it against a pressure point on the collar buckle for well controlled pressure. When the dog fetches I only release the pressure, while maintaining control of the ear. If the dog drops the fetch object (I use a paint roller for a host of reasons) I can instantly turn the pressure back on with no time loss. Timing is important in all dog training.

    If, at the end of my sessions, I decide to throw a fun bumper I can do it with instant timing for effect, while not losing that timing through the need to unleash the dog from a chain or an kind of halter. Just some points to consider. Very nice job. It may be even better, but I leave it to you to decide on any changes you may desire to make.

    BTW, I do use the "Hold" command in the early going, but evolve out of it as I go along. I want the function of holding to become a component of fetch, and I think that fairly takes some time and exposure for the dog to understand. Eventually I abandon in altogether.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mxo6wdHl2w

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


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    Senior Member Kirkd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    That was an exceptional first session. And, while it’s not the technique I prefer overall, it’s clear you’ve done an excellent job of preparing this dog for the work. I’m especially pleased with the fact you so consistently praise genuinely for compliance. Most men are poor at this.

    Your fundamental obedience appears plenty good enough that she doesn’t need to be tied up. She sat firmly with no squirming at all, and showed a good solid hold. I would like to take this opportunity to mention some reasons why my procedure varies from what you're doing, and provide you with some rationale to consider.

    I only use tables to save my aging back. I do not lash them to chains or poles, but rather rely on sound obedience work prior to beginning FF work. For the majority of my forcing I sit on a plastic bucket with the dog close to me at my side.

    In your clip, note that as soon as the bumper is in the dog’s mouth you completely release the dog from your physical control. I’ll post a clip here showing my technique, which includes not really pinching the dog’s ear, but rather holding the ear flap between my thumb and forefinger and pressing it against a pressure point on the collar buckle for well controlled pressure. When the dog fetches I only release the pressure, while maintaining control of the ear. If the dog drops the fetch object (I use a paint roller for a host of reasons) I can instantly turn the pressure back on with no time loss. Timing is important in all dog training.

    If, at the end of my sessions, I decide to throw a fun bumper I can do it with instant timing for effect, while not losing that timing through the need to unleash the dog from a chain or an kind of halter. Just some points to consider. Very nice job. It may be even better, but I leave it to you to decide on any changes you may desire to make.

    BTW, I do use the "Hold" command in the early going, but evolve out of it as I go along. I want the function of holding to become a component of fetch, and I think that fairly takes some time and exposure for the dog to understand. Eventually I abandon in altogether.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mxo6wdHl2w

    Evan
    Thanks Evan. I will take a look at the link.

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    Some general observations. I agree with the basic comments by Evan re the table and needing to tie up this particular dog. I also agree with the importance of priase when the dog complies. It is as important as the pressure.

    However, this dog appears to be very tractable and somewhat soft and sensitive. She is nonetheless being stressed. Notice her panting and her sloppy sit. She showed this same floppy sit when you were teaching her "place" in another video. These are submissive and/or stress gestures.

    You are encouraging her "soft" behaviour by excessively praising it. Praise should be directed at the behaviour of the fetch and not carried on for a long time afterwards praising her concerned behaviour. Sometimes you can pet them and try to make them feel OK especially after a refusal that required more pressure. But if you keep saying "good dog" over and over after the behaviour you start to weaken the great power of praise and you start to praise the wrong behaviour. I hoped I have explained the difference between excessive and misdirected praise and well-timed and needed praise.

    Having said all of this, I do not expect that you will encounter many cooperation problems with this young dog. However, I think you can foster a sharper more confident and more animated dog by being more judicious with your praise.

    As some of you know I now prefer an approach closer to the Hillman method and so the dog is in more of a prey drive mode and much more animated. This helps a softer cooperative dog perform with more pizazz!

    Carry On and let us know how she responds to later steps!
    Dennis

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    Senior Member Alec Sparks's Avatar
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    First I'll echo Evans' compliments/comments and add......


    Your high table makes it so you can just stand there but puts you in an awkward position. If your pup actually tried to reach for the object the tied in position makes that difficult.

    While certainly not freaking out on the table, I just believe the pup would have a better attitude walking at heel on the grass and stopping from time to time for a few pinches then moving to a new location. That gives you the ability to have all her thoughts/motion forward, even the very start of fetch is about beginning the process of getting the dog to 'think' forward. I want the dog at my side and the fetch object to be in front of the dog.

    For me fetch means reach forward...then forward and down...then forward to an object.....then forward to a pile...the T...them TT....then 'blind, always thinking forward. Down the road I would never say fetch to a dog picking up off the ground and either stop its forward motion or yank it back to heel.

    When a beginning FF dog is reaching just a bit my first move with the dummy is away from then [then down] as I want them to learn it's OK to move forward to get the dummy.

    You look fit and healthy and shouldn't have any problem bending over 12-15 time a session. People that truly do have physical issues would be better off building a carpeted table about a foot high and 16' long so they could fetch like they were on the ground without the bending issues.

    Moving a bit between a few pinches is your dogs friend. Just think how much you relax when the dentist gets his hands out of your mouth and allows you to adjust your position in the chair. I think it's the same with a dog.

    Both fetching on the ground and an intro to pinch pressure at a lower level of pressure would most likely give positive results in attitude and grasp/application of concept for Sandy imo.

    The video is an excellent example of how many many dogs are FF that IMO would benefit from a different approach.

    In any event, you're doing well given the limitations of your table.
    Last edited by Alec Sparks; 09-01-2011 at 08:00 AM.
    I believe initial introduction 'pinch to open' FF doctrine is as progressive as shooting a dog with bird shot to get it to sit on a whistle. AS

    *"That you are confused is VERY APPARENT. Are you a politician as well as a FORMER pro dog trainer who QUIT because YOU think that the trial game is all wrong?"
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Sparks View Post
    First I'll echo Evans' compliments/comments and add......


    Your high table makes it so you can just stand there but puts you in an awkward position. If your pup actually tried to reach for the object the tied in position makes that difficult.
    I agree. Good observation, Alec.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Sparks View Post
    While certainly not freaking out on the table, I just believe the pup would have a better attitude walking at heel on the grass and stopping from time to time for a few pinches then moving to a new location. That gives you the ability to have all her thoughts/motion forward, even the very start of fetch is about beginning the process of getting the dog to 'think' forward. I want the dog at my side and the fetch object to be in front of the dog.

    For me fetch means reach forward...then forward and down...then forward to an object.....then forward to a pile...the T...them TT....then 'blind, always thinking forward.
    I think that's a great way of expressing the progression. All the early fetching is forward. You're literally building momentum as you force forward, especially as you move through Walking Fetch, and on into Force to Pile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alec Sparks View Post
    Down the road I would never say fetch to a dog picking up off the ground and either stop its forward motion or yank it back to heel.
    I hope I'm understanding you correctly on this, Alec. How far "Down the road" are you thinking on this? I ask because in heading down the road in FF progression, FTP comes into play, where that's just what happens - especially when we school them not to shop the pile. Are we on the same page?

    EvanG
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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    Your looking good.
    I think new folks can be frustrated and mislead when they keep seeing these calm dogs on video's . I think it gives them the impression of this is how your obedience must look before you begin FF. Some dogs are forever heathens. And can never sit calmly without being overly stressed like that when being tied down and expecting an ear pinch is on the way. So this post was for all those people who are still waiting to FF until they have a dog that looks like this one. A dogs obedience can be pretty good until percieved or real pressure is applied. Your dog appears softer and plyable and seems like she would be very relaxing to FF

    I often use the 4 fingers through the collar approach,,,very similar to a bull riders grip. Reach for the ear and hang on.

    I agree with the posts above,,especially Dennis's. Very good read on the dog, And I am also impressed that there is some one now with clout talking about "prey drive mode" I believe teaching of and in this concept will help lots of people overcome many different problems that occure from training 'out of drive"

    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  10. #10
    Senior Member Alec Sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I agree. Good observation, Alec.I think that's a great way of expressing the progression. All the early fetching is forward. You're literally building momentum as you force forward, especially as you move through Walking Fetch, and on into Force to Pile.I hope I'm understanding you correctly on this, Alec. How far "Down the road" are you thinking on this? I ask because in heading down the road in FF progression, FTP comes into play, where that's just what happens - especially when we school them not to shop the pile. Are we on the same page?

    EvanG
    Yeah, we're on the same page. I'm talking about the people that have the dog fetch off the ground 2' away [during fetch] and then yank it back to heel rather then move forward with its movement.
    I believe initial introduction 'pinch to open' FF doctrine is as progressive as shooting a dog with bird shot to get it to sit on a whistle. AS

    *"That you are confused is VERY APPARENT. Are you a politician as well as a FORMER pro dog trainer who QUIT because YOU think that the trial game is all wrong?"
    *

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