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Force Fetch Video, How we doing, Suggestions Needed

43K views 277 replies 48 participants last post by  polmaise 
#1 · (Edited)
This is Sandy's first day on force fetch. We have been working on hold for the past week or so. I normally put my dogs with a pro at this point but I am trying Sandy on my own. Let me know what you think.

First Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ46MuH2l74

Second Session 9/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp5C5WRi_0w

3rd Session 9/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvm2sOfcE2c

4th Session 9/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SmPV1ltH4s

4th Session -- " ON THE GROUND"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9yaFXbnseA

9-6 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuObbteIGMI

9-9 Session, 2 sessions about 20 minutes apart put together in one video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ZAcqITjQ4

9-14 Session
http://vimeo.com/29075823

9-28 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWBOuEMnB9U

9-30 Session Lets make it fun today per suggestion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFsjNBKM9Ao

10-4 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=F4T81jLWABM


10-6 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmY2rs-1g5A

10-8 Session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgJni5YSSGw
 
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#2 ·
It looks very good to me. The only comment I would make, is that with my pup I did not use the command "hold". My pup just finished FF with Sharon Potter, and from the beginning when the dummy or dowel was placed in his mouth he was expected to hold it. We did not introduce a new command. Your dog acts and reacts a lot like my pup. Willing and able. I can not say enough about Sharon's work with my dog. When we went to the field using ducks, the pup did his job superbly. Part of his table work was learning to sit on pick up, and it has carried over beautifully. I could not be more pleased. This pup is better with his birds than either of my older dogs. I guess it does pay to use experience when you have it available!
 
#4 ·
That was an exceptional first session. And, while it’s not the technique I prefer overall, it’s clear you’ve done an excellent job of preparing this dog for the work. I’m especially pleased with the fact you so consistently praise genuinely for compliance. Most men are poor at this.

Your fundamental obedience appears plenty good enough that she doesn’t need to be tied up. She sat firmly with no squirming at all, and showed a good solid hold. I would like to take this opportunity to mention some reasons why my procedure varies from what you're doing, and provide you with some rationale to consider.

I only use tables to save my aging back. I do not lash them to chains or poles, but rather rely on sound obedience work prior to beginning FF work. For the majority of my forcing I sit on a plastic bucket with the dog close to me at my side.

In your clip, note that as soon as the bumper is in the dog’s mouth you completely release the dog from your physical control. I’ll post a clip here showing my technique, which includes not really pinching the dog’s ear, but rather holding the ear flap between my thumb and forefinger and pressing it against a pressure point on the collar buckle for well controlled pressure. When the dog fetches I only release the pressure, while maintaining control of the ear. If the dog drops the fetch object (I use a paint roller for a host of reasons) I can instantly turn the pressure back on with no time loss. Timing is important in all dog training.

If, at the end of my sessions, I decide to throw a fun bumper I can do it with instant timing for effect, while not losing that timing through the need to unleash the dog from a chain or an kind of halter. Just some points to consider. Very nice job. It may be even better, but I leave it to you to decide on any changes you may desire to make.

BTW, I do use the "Hold" command in the early going, but evolve out of it as I go along. I want the function of holding to become a component of fetch, and I think that fairly takes some time and exposure for the dog to understand. Eventually I abandon in altogether.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mxo6wdHl2w

Evan
 
#6 ·
Some general observations. I agree with the basic comments by Evan re the table and needing to tie up this particular dog. I also agree with the importance of priase when the dog complies. It is as important as the pressure.

However, this dog appears to be very tractable and somewhat soft and sensitive. She is nonetheless being stressed. Notice her panting and her sloppy sit. She showed this same floppy sit when you were teaching her "place" in another video. These are submissive and/or stress gestures.

You are encouraging her "soft" behaviour by excessively praising it. Praise should be directed at the behaviour of the fetch and not carried on for a long time afterwards praising her concerned behaviour. Sometimes you can pet them and try to make them feel OK especially after a refusal that required more pressure. But if you keep saying "good dog" over and over after the behaviour you start to weaken the great power of praise and you start to praise the wrong behaviour. I hoped I have explained the difference between excessive and misdirected praise and well-timed and needed praise.

Having said all of this, I do not expect that you will encounter many cooperation problems with this young dog. However, I think you can foster a sharper more confident and more animated dog by being more judicious with your praise.

As some of you know I now prefer an approach closer to the Hillman method and so the dog is in more of a prey drive mode and much more animated. This helps a softer cooperative dog perform with more pizazz!

Carry On and let us know how she responds to later steps!
 
#7 · (Edited)
First I'll echo Evans' compliments/comments and add......


Your high table makes it so you can just stand there but puts you in an awkward position. If your pup actually tried to reach for the object the tied in position makes that difficult.

While certainly not freaking out on the table, I just believe the pup would have a better attitude walking at heel on the grass and stopping from time to time for a few pinches then moving to a new location. That gives you the ability to have all her thoughts/motion forward, even the very start of fetch is about beginning the process of getting the dog to 'think' forward. I want the dog at my side and the fetch object to be in front of the dog.

For me fetch means reach forward...then forward and down...then forward to an object.....then forward to a pile...the T...them TT....then 'blind, always thinking forward. Down the road I would never say fetch to a dog picking up off the ground and either stop its forward motion or yank it back to heel.

When a beginning FF dog is reaching just a bit my first move with the dummy is away from then [then down] as I want them to learn it's OK to move forward to get the dummy.

You look fit and healthy and shouldn't have any problem bending over 12-15 time a session. People that truly do have physical issues would be better off building a carpeted table about a foot high and 16' long so they could fetch like they were on the ground without the bending issues.

Moving a bit between a few pinches is your dogs friend. Just think how much you relax when the dentist gets his hands out of your mouth and allows you to adjust your position in the chair. I think it's the same with a dog.

Both fetching on the ground and an intro to pinch pressure at a lower level of pressure would most likely give positive results in attitude and grasp/application of concept for Sandy imo.

The video is an excellent example of how many many dogs are FF that IMO would benefit from a different approach.

In any event, you're doing well given the limitations of your table.
 
#8 ·
First I'll echo Evans' compliments/comments and add......


Your high table makes it so you can just stand there but puts you in an awkward position. If your pup actually tried to reach for the object the tied in position makes that difficult.
I agree. Good observation, Alec.
While certainly not freaking out on the table, I just believe the pup would have a better attitude walking at heel on the grass and stopping from time to time for a few pinches then moving to a new location. That gives you the ability to have all her thoughts/motion forward, even the very start of fetch is about beginning the process of getting the dog to 'think' forward. I want the dog at my side and the fetch object to be in front of the dog.

For me fetch means reach forward...then forward and down...then forward to an object.....then forward to a pile...the T...them TT....then 'blind, always thinking forward.
I think that's a great way of expressing the progression. All the early fetching is forward. You're literally building momentum as you force forward, especially as you move through Walking Fetch, and on into Force to Pile.
Down the road I would never say fetch to a dog picking up off the ground and either stop its forward motion or yank it back to heel.
I hope I'm understanding you correctly on this, Alec. How far "Down the road" are you thinking on this? I ask because in heading down the road in FF progression, FTP comes into play, where that's just what happens - especially when we school them not to shop the pile. Are we on the same page?

EvanG
 
#9 ·
Your looking good.
I think new folks can be frustrated and mislead when they keep seeing these calm dogs on video's . I think it gives them the impression of this is how your obedience must look before you begin FF. Some dogs are forever heathens. And can never sit calmly without being overly stressed like that when being tied down and expecting an ear pinch is on the way. So this post was for all those people who are still waiting to FF until they have a dog that looks like this one. A dogs obedience can be pretty good until percieved or real pressure is applied. Your dog appears softer and plyable and seems like she would be very relaxing to FF

I often use the 4 fingers through the collar approach,,,very similar to a bull riders grip. Reach for the ear and hang on.:)

I agree with the posts above,,especially Dennis's. Very good read on the dog, And I am also impressed that there is some one now with clout talking about "prey drive mode" I believe teaching of and in this concept will help lots of people overcome many different problems that occure from training 'out of drive"

Pete
 
#12 ·
I would agree with the recommendation to not chain the dog. This dog doesn't need it. I agree with Dennis on the sloppy sit. Maintaining a standard is important, by getting her off the chain you can better enforce proper sitting. I didn't see an earlier video of her but right away didn't like the slouching. I would recommend not being so involved in taking the bumper. Right from the beginning I would be having the dog release and give up the bumper. I would recommend slowing your movement downs, calmer or perhaps softer voice with the praise on the fetch act.

/Paul
 
#14 ·
Evan Graham, Retrievers ONLINE-, Alec, and the rest of the gang..I often wonder if folks really understand how incredibly lucky it is to have your presence on this forum..You guys are incredible..

The hand coming completely off of the ear was the one thing that really grabbed me as well, as I was taught to never take your hand off of his ear, regardless of if you're applying pressure or not.
 
#15 ·
I'm speechless. So horrible, so shocking, so cruel, I nearly expired from yuckymusciodosis while watching.

Moving on....I think your youtube example was the best clip showing fair and humane negative reinforcement training I have EVER SEEN. Using ear pinch adversive from your first signal/cue to your last (stopping) the aversive event, the escape training was fluid.

Having already taught the dog an excellent hold (HER MOUTH IS SOOOOOOOO CALM), after a couple of trials she seemed to gained expected relief even if the praise was a little too overboard. I would wait for further sessions as others have mentioned. Could have been a little faster also.

You ignored what some call , dogs bags of tricks, with her trying to escape by lifting her head and leg/paw.

You continued in a pretty smooth (-) and calm manner keeping stress and thus learning pathways clear with very little unwanted fallout.

I would have no diversions ie son, regardless you reconnected well.

I SAW NO PUNISHMENT, WHICH IMPRESSED ME NO END!!

Would like to see not on a table toooooo.

Outstanding first attempt, with dog on very short chain...better than opportunities to "self" escape.


Conclusion: Music choice -F (he he)
Clip: A +
 
#16 ·
To the question you asked me, no, Sharon does not use a "hold" command. Actually everything is silent except for the "good dogs" given as praise. The only word she introduced as a command was "fetch". I am not even in the same solar system with these other guys as far as knowledge and experience. I chose to have a pro I know do this for me as I felt like I was dragging out the process while I learned, to the detriment of the pup. But I am fascinated with this new (?) approach that is being discussed here and will for sure explore it with my next dog. BTW, my pup is one of those, "much more animated" types, but your method, using the table, worked very well for him. His first session was indeed very much like yours, but a tad more bouncing about and too many repeated "sit" commands from me!:rolleyes:

In the end though, all I can say is the results are beautiful. I am very excited to see his good line manners, delivery and bird handling with absolutely no loss of attitude.
 
#19 ·
I also agree with Dennis about the poor sit. That will be more easily managed when you get him off the table, and onto the ground. Formalizing standard obedience before FF is important, and squaring up the sit is part of that. You'll not only find it easier to keep that standard up on the ground, but you will also find the transition to walking fetch more fluid from the ground position as well.

Evan
 
#21 ·
Not so much as correcting the sloppy SIT ASAP, but more importantly about how the dog is sitting, and what it suggests... Mr. Voight elegantly explains, and is a very FINE example of the ability to read the dog that's in front of you..:cool:
 
#24 · (Edited)
.... Reach for the ear and hang on....
With a different introduction to ear pressure, rarely do you have to or should you have to "hang on" like in the old days when pinching enough to open mouth on the first application of ear pressure was the order of the day and induced many unwanted escape/avoidance behaviors. i.e. trying to lay down, rear up, twist around, etc. etc. etc.

Bummer imo how for many dogs that still the status quo FF technique.
 
#26 ·
With a different introduction to ear pressure, rarely do you have to or should you have to "hang on" like in the old days when pinching enough to open mouth on the first application of ear pressure was the order of the day and induced many unwanted escape/avoidance behaviors. i.e. trying to lay down, rear up, twist around, etc. etc. etc
Yep
But there are 10 of thousands of people who read this site probably. And a few of them definitely have one.

pete
 
#31 ·
This is Sandy's first day on force fetch. We have been working on hold for the past week or so. I normally put my dogs with a pro at this point but I am trying Sandy on my own. Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ46MuH2l74
Very nice......a good first day. One clip is worth a million words, thanks for posting.

Evan, I also liked your clip on hold currently on youtube, it put your comments on this matter in context, thank you for posting it..........

john
 
#34 ·
Wow! What a great job, and even more you putting it up there for comment! I think that the dog is still a little "hesitant" but that may just be the contrast from my dynamite dogs. I look forward to hearing the critiques from Evan, Alec and Dennis.
 
#36 ·
Here's my best 'between the lines' guess:

You mentioned you usually put your dog with a pro for FF. My guess is that your pro uses a table and FF in this same manner. The table look brand new and you plan to use it.


Couple things:

It may be 'safe' with her but [and I can see why someone would hook a dog in] pinching that way leaves your arm open to getting bitten and [trust me] no matter how mellow your dog is, I wouldn't put my face that close to a dog whose ear I was pinching. You really never know when/how they may react as the pressure increases.

She's backed up against the wall and while [again] she's not freaking out, she ain't real happy and [again] the hip sitting also shows that.

Initially trying to get her up on the table she didn't show then the video cut. Did she not want to get up there?

Again, nothing forward in her thinking.

I persoanlly would be doing more fetches and less of letting her hold so long after one.

I bet with you in a less awkward position and hold her left ear, you could have her moving/fetching/thinking forward a few inches already and using less pressure and getting a quicker response. The left ear position also give you better control of the head so you can help your dog NOT avoid fetching with head movement.

The Steve Wonder [yeah, not PC] head movement is her not knowing what to do when pinched, keep the dummy right at her nose and get her to understand that getting it quickly stops the pinch. It's to early imo to ask her to fetch with a dummy in any other position and counterproductive to have ear pressure any longer then needed for an understood response at this point.

You will be successful FF you dog as you are approaching things, I just don't believe you'll do so in the most optimal fashion .

Sorry to harp.........

Another great thing about FF on the ground is it lets the dog do 'something' it's confident doing....a bit of heel/sit now and then. It's not just all FF, which I believe helps them be more confident during the process. And of course you'll avoid an extra pressure step when you transition to the ground which some dogs require.
 
#37 ·
She did jump right up on the table. She is fine getting up moving up and down etc.. tail just a wagging prior to starting the session. Just had over 15 minutes of video and tried to cut it down to best articulate her attitude and response during the session.

The table is just about 6 months old and she has been off and on it throughout basics. All the trainers that I have used in the past do use a table to start with and then move it to the ground.

I appreciate your comments and I do not look at them as harping. You are just sharing your opinion which I asked for. I hope through this process I can take a little from everyones style and methods to create a method that I am comfortable with. Until then I am looking for as much input as I can get from those that are willing to share their personal experience .

Thank you for taking the time
 
#38 ·
Kirk
I think one thing a person needs to realize is that when you post a video,,and ask for critiqing ,,that people are going to look for the most insignificant thing and point it out to you, it is the HUMAN CONDITION . Critiqing is an art in its self,,and when your working with a dog and it is pressure related,,that dog will show you all kinds of different subtle and not so subtle behaviors. Some of these are important to read and counter while others often have no affect on the outcome. I think no matter who is FF or training a dog in some way shape or form,,,we could all find error in what they are doing somewhere along the line. Early this year I view a top trainers video and notice many things counter to the retriever gospel that actually they taught.. No one here is perfect . Everybody tries as hard to be picture perfect but non of us and I mean none of us are.

These are only two things that stand out as important via the internet and being your fairly new to FF.
1 You take alot of time between fetches and
your working on hold way more than fetch

2 your dog is ready to reach and your holding it back.
let the dog move foward. You will have to figure out how to work the dog when its perpendicular from your front. this way he can move foward. I think the rest is to subtle and insignificant for you right now. And will squelch your advancment if you dwell on it.


It may be 'safe' with her but [and I can see why someone would hook a dog in] pinching that way leaves your arm open to getting bitten and [trust me] no matter how mellow your dog is, I wouldn't put my face that close to a dog whose ear I was pinching. You really never know when/how they may react as the pressure increases
Its not the face one has to be concerned with most of the time. Although your face is close and is causing a challenge or possibly a threat depending on the dogs temperament . When you go to grab the ear the dog will strike the hand which is grabbing the ear and almost always leave your face intact.. I think the table can certainly cause issues with certain dogs. But this is the way you have chosen and your dog looks fine with it. People all around the world use tables. This should be a non issue. But like with all tools they take time to learn how to use. I don't use them.,,it doesn't make it right or wrong.
Good luck
Pete
 
#76 ·
Kirk
I think one thing a person needs to realize is that when you post a video,,and ask for critiqing ,,that people are going to look for the most insignificant thing and point it out to you, it is the HUMAN CONDITION . Critiqing is an art in its self,,and when your working with a dog and it is pressure related,,that dog will show you all kinds of different subtle and not so subtle behaviors. Some of these are important to read and counter while others often have no affect on the outcome. I think no matter who is FF or training a dog in some way shape or form,,,we could all find error in what they are doing somewhere along the line. Early this year I view a top trainers video and notice many things counter to the retriever gospel that actually they taught.. No one here is perfect . Everybody tries as hard to be picture perfect but non of us and I mean none of us are.

These are only two things that stand out as important via the internet and being your fairly new to FF.
1 You take alot of time between fetches and
your working on hold way more than fetch

2 your dog is ready to reach and your holding it back.
let the dog move foward. You will have to figure out how to work the dog when its perpendicular from your front. this way he can move foward. I think the rest is to subtle and insignificant for you right now. And will squelch your advancment if you dwell on it.




Its not the face one has to be concerned with most of the time. Although your face is close and is causing a challenge or possibly a threat depending on the dogs temperament . When you go to grab the ear the dog will strike the hand which is grabbing the ear and almost always leave your face intact.. I think the table can certainly cause issues with certain dogs. But this is the way you have chosen and your dog looks fine with it. People all around the world use tables. This should be a non issue. But like with all tools they take time to learn how to use. I don't use them.,,it doesn't make it right or wrong.
Good luck
Pete
:):):)

A further comment on Evan's suggestion to not let her do these avoidance things. I am assuming tha Evan is suggesting to command "fetch" and apply an ear pinch for pressure immediately when she tries these avoidance moves. There are additonal things that you can do and this is a good time to learn them and deal with this behaviour. I suspect that if we saw an obedience session with her, we'd see some of these same behaviours. You can address the behaviour by grabbing her collar and snapping her into a proper sit position when she flop sits. When she paws or averts you can also grab her and snap her to attention. This is a firm but clear form of negative reinforcement if you command "sit" and immediately release when she is in position. This same kind of teaching is done with a puppy when it first tries to flop sit but of course it is far more gentle and is really just showing the way. In this case you may have to be a little more firm but she is inthe habit of trying this.

I'd like to see you do a bit of both types of correction, the Fetch with pressure and the "snap to a sit". I think it will help you in the long run to learn several techniques.

Getting overwhlemed yet?

BTW I was wondering what the OPs real name was and also the name of the dog (never said in the video?) I think we all need to develop a personal relationship with our animals when we subject them to "our wishes". Am I correct you are Kirk and the dog is Sandy? If so, hang in there Kirk and Sandy:)

PS. And Evan, feel free to comment on this- don't want to make an ass-u-me!!!!!
Thanks for the advice. About to head back out for another session and I am trying to catch up on all the comments. Without a doubt I am overwhelmed but enjoying every minute of it. I have buddies calling me that are reading this post giving me advice as well as folks on here. All of which I have asked for. I never thought I would get this much involvement with the post. Needless to say I am trying to take what everyone is saying and blend it the best I can. It is a challenge but looking forward to seeing how I can progress through the learning curve while at the same time bringing Sandy through FF.

I'd like to see you do a bit of both types of correction, the Fetch with pressure and the "snap to a sit". I think it will help you in the long run to learn several techniques.

I will work on enforcing a better sit. I have had so many comments offline regarding this issue and not to worry about it. I will also unhook the chain. I will try to get her moving forward more. Several of you keep talking about forward thinking. I am not sure how I get that applied in the FF session. I understand that I need her to start thinking about going towards a pile etc... But I am not sure how to get her forward thinking. Would like some examples.

Again, I would like to thank everyone for walking through this with me. I am sure to many of you this is just something that you do without thinking about it. Needless to say I am sweating through each step hoping to not screw up Miss Sandy.

Thanks for the guidance... Kirk
 
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