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Thread: The Future of American Cars????

  1. #1
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Default The Future of American Cars????

    "The shocking truth about electric cars" By Donald Sensing

    The shocking truth about electric cars - The Globe and Mail:

    Electric cars aren’t necessarily green at all. Electric vehicles require large amounts of electricity – so much that Toronto Hydro chief Anthony Haines says he doesn’t know how he’d get it. “If you connect about 10 per cent of the homes on any given street with an electric car, the electricity system fails,” he said recently.


    ***You cannot repeal the second law of thermodynamics.***

    Remember the electric-only Honda Clarity, that was advertised to use no gasoline at all?



    The problem is that hydrogen is a fuel but not a resource. Hydrogen gas, H2, has to be made. It just can't be sucked out the air or water or earth. As I explained in "Buy a Honda, Kill a Polar Bear,"

    where does the driver get the hydrogen to begin with? Hydrogen gas, H2, is not found free in nature. There are two ways to separate hydrogen from its compounds: hydrolysis and reforming. The former, most commonly and easily done with water, uses electricity and a catalyst to break H2O into H2 and O2. Reforming uses heat instead of electricity.

    More than 90 percent of the hydrogen produced in the world is obtained by steam reforming of natural gas. It's not energy efficient since the energy gained from the hydrogen gas is less than the energy required to produce it. H2 produced in this manner is not used for fuel (except rocket fuel and some others exotics), but for industrial and chemical purposes. ...


    That's the problem with fuel-cell or any other electrically-powered vehicle. There is no free way to produce the electricity. Since most electricity in the United States is produced by coal-fired plants, all that electric cars do is shift the environmental effects from the tailpipe to the power plant. This is not a good shift, since today's auto burn extremely cleanly already.

    If the H2 is produced using electricity somewhere, then odds are that coal produces that electricity. So the CO2 production has been merely moved off the auto to another emitter. Also, does it take more energy to produce the H2, whatever the source, than the H2 supplies? If so, exactly what is the benefit of the Clarity?


    The Globe and Mail makes the same point:

    And if the extra electricity [needed to recharge electric cars] isn’t generated by renewable energy, then overall carbon dioxide emissions will go up, not down, Prof. Smil says. “The only way electric cars could reduce global carbon emissions would be if all the additional electricity needed to power them came from carbon-free energies.” He also makes the essential point that the world’s energy infrastructure is based on fossil fuels. Changing that will take decades.


    Electric cars are not ready for mass market and never will be.






    ***Second law of thermodynamics***From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to: navigation, search
    The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the tendency that over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and chemical potential equilibrate in an isolated physical system. From the state of thermodynamic equilibrium, the law deduced the principle of the increase of entropy and explains the phenomenon of irreversibility in nature. The second law declares the impossibility of machines that generate usable energy from the abundant internal energy of nature by processes called perpetual motion of the second kind.

    The second law may be expressed in many specific ways, but the first formulation is credited to the German scientist Rudolf Clausius. The law is usually stated in physical terms of impossible processes. In classical thermodynamics, the second law is a basic postulate applicable to any system involving measurable heat transfer, while in statistical thermodynamics, the second law is a consequence of unitarity in quantum theory. In classical thermodynamics, the second law defines the concept of thermodynamic entropy, while in statistical mechanics entropy is defined from information theory, known as the Shannon entropy.
    Yup....we are in good hands.
    A bunch of naive little children that have done nothing but sit in class their whole lives, figgerin out what's best for us.


    RK
    Last edited by road kill; 09-02-2011 at 03:22 PM.
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    Senior Member BHB's Avatar
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    I'm just a simple man... I don't know about all this scientific stuff but it does seem like common sense to me that just because the electric car gets it's energy from the power plant that operates on some kind of fossil fuel doesn't mean that the car is better for the environment. Somehow, somewhere that fossil fuel has got to be burned!

    So, limiting me to 40 miles/charge with an electric car isn't going to help my "carbon footprint" at all! I'll stick with my diesel pick up!

    Besides, only AlGore cares about carbon footprints... yeah right... with his $3000/mo electric bills on just one of his houses!

    BHB
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    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    the internal combustion engine powers the country, trains,planes and automobiles,its like trying to reinvent the wheel,the resources are out there, but we continue to squabble and fight for oil in lands far away at the cost of human lives, instead of using our domestic resources right beneath our own ground
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    the internal combustion engine powers the country, trains,planes and automobiles,its like trying to reinvent the wheel,the resources are out there, but we continue to squabble and fight for oil in lands far away at the cost of human lives, instead of using our domestic resources right beneath our own ground
    I agree with you but it's not like if we drill the resources would stay here anyway...everything would go to the global market. What I don't understand is if it is greed pushing everything to the global market or if there is some regulation that requires it to be sold there.

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    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody Covey View Post
    I agree with you but it's not like if we drill the resources would stay here anyway...everything would go to the global market. What I don't understand is if it is greed pushing everything to the global market or if there is some regulation that requires it to be sold there.
    not only sold here, but IMHO it should be owned here too, sure dont want some turban wearing desert dweller (not meaning las vegas) owning the oil fields in Alaska, Penn, or Texas..it should almost be like the FCC regs regarding radio and TV stations being owned by domestic groups only
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

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    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHB View Post
    I'm just a simple man... I don't know about all this scientific stuff but it does seem like common sense to me that just because the electric car gets it's energy from the power plant that operates on some kind of fossil fuel doesn't mean that the car is better for the environment. Somehow, somewhere that fossil fuel has got to be burned!

    BHB
    And our local electric company was paying people to replace their electric home heating with fossil fuel furnaces!

    Why? Because the state has mandated the elec company reduce electric consumption by certain quota amounts, and switching customers off electric heat will help do that! If the target usage is not reached, the elec company will be assessed a penalty.

    Of course, then they will just raise elec rates even higher Thank you, Gov. Rendell & State legislature for not thinking further than the end of your nose.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    I feel dumber for having read that.

    Electrics don't have anything to do with "green." It's all about bringing other fuels into the transportation mix.

    Any a guy working for a power company making a statement like that? Connecting vehicles to the grid in 10% of households will crash the grid? Has he not educated himself on smart grid technologies? Apparently he has not.
    Last edited by Buzz; 09-02-2011 at 08:25 PM.
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    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Buzz, what would be the point in bringing new fuels into the transportation mix if the net result does not decrease dependence on oil?

    The present administration has indicated it wants to eliminate coal as a fuel. Nuclear is in disfavor. Solar and wind seem to be a long way from providing enough kwhs to "fuel" a large grid at anything resembling a reasonable cost.

    Electric may be valid for the transportation mix when applied to mass transportation, but there are many areas that are not effectively served by mass transportation that works in urban areas like NYC.

    It seems more reasonable to heat/cool homes with other forms of fuels, and use oil for the cars. In heating homes the delivery system doesn't have to be "portable"; don't need a network of fueling stations; bulk & weight are not big issues for stationery uses.

    It then gives more time to develop some kind of engine that could actually perform close to the gasoline engines for cars.

    If you're still using oil to make the electricity, and the oil is not being used as efficiently per mile traveled in the electric car, then we haven't accomplished anything.
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    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    I feel dumber for having read that.

    Electrics don't have anything to do with "green." It's all about bringing other fuels into the transportation mix.

    Any a guy working for a power company making a statement like that? Connecting vehicles to the grid in 10% of households will crash the grid? Has he not educated himself on smart grid technologies? Apparently he has not.
    Buzz, are you disputing Clausius' theory?

    RK
    Stan b & Elvis

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    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    The amount of petroleum is finite. They ain't making any more. There is some untapped sources but they are going to be very expensive and difficult to reach.

    We can keep sending our sons and daughters, as well as treasure to war to protect our sources OR we can get our scientific folks cracking to find a solution. Defense of the gas guzzler is going to bury us. The party is coming to an end.
    Sarge

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