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Thread: The Future of American Cars????

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Whoa there, Cary! Go find a wind/solar advocate to vent your wrath. I don't believe they are the magic bullet.

    You can drill til you're tired of it, but, eventually you won't want to pay the price for petroleum..
    You are the one that said you wanted wind and solar energy available 24/7. Well it is so why don't you pay for it. Let me guess, IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE!!!!


    You can't drill. Ever heard of the moratorium of drilling in the Gulf enacted by that brilliant POTUS? At least if you want to do business in this country.

    I have always wondered the logic of our energy policy. Let me give you a question.

    What sense does it make to spend 600 billion dollare for oil from the middle east but not drill for it here?

  2. #22
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Re-read the post, Cary. I said wind /solar is NOT available 24/7. Can you point to the post where I said wind/solar is the ticket? In fact, I distinctly said they are NOT the answer. Your apology, please!

    Last I checked the moratorium in the Gulf is largely lifted save for some very risky sites. You can get a nice drilling job in North Dakota. There's lots of drilling going on all over the country, in fact.

    Oil prices are subject to a lot of different influences. It isn't only a question of supply and demand. There has been much speculation in the oil market for some time that has effectively short circuited the normal supply/demand pricing. You said you want to invest your money in petroleum. Good for you. Go right ahead.
    Last edited by zeus3925; 09-03-2011 at 09:40 PM.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Re-read the post, Cary. I said wind /solar is NOT available 24/7. Can you point to the post where I said wind/solar is the ticket? In fact, I distinctly said they are NOT the answer. Your apology, please!

    Last I checked the moratorium in the Gulf is largely lifted save for some very risky sites. You can get a nice drilling job in North Dakota. There's lots of drilling going on all over the country, in fact.

    Oil prices are subject to a lot of different influences. It isn't only a question of supply and demand. There has been much speculation in the oil market for some time that has effectively short circuited the normal supply/demand pricing. You said you want to invest your money in petroleum. Good for you. Go right ahead.
    I do apologize, you said problem with wind/solar was that it is not available 24/7. Extremely careless of me.

    Actually, the 24/7 is not a problem from a suplier standpoint. i won't speak of all states but Tennessee is one I am somewhat familiar. By law which I believe to be Federal and as such to apply to all states, kelectric companies are obligated to purchase power generated by bot solar and wind. Based on the demand for and the supply of wind/solar(w/s) energy, the companies can adjust their plant output.

    A friend of mine just put in a solar system at the cost of about $350,000.00.
    He figured based on his cost estimates and return on investment, he would probably break even after 30 years. This was also the anticipated life of the system. But after reimbursement from the Fed Gov, the state of Tennessee from the stimulus money and also money from TVA totataling almost $250,000.00 and also the fact that TVA would have to pay him 110% of the price they charged him for electricity, and the fact that even though his expense for the system was about $100,000.00, he would be able to depreciate the whole $350,000.00 even though he only had to put out about $100,000.00. The result would be that he would recoup his investment in about 3 1/2 years, thanks to the taxpayor. As he said he is "laughing all the way to the bank with the free money that the gov. gives him from the taxpayor. He always lets me know that he is getting my tax money due to the absolute stupidity of the gov.

    I just tell him that I get it back due to the subsity on gas containing ethanol, resulting in higher corn prices, compliments of the stupidity of the gov. the problem with this is those that don't grow corn or were not able to take advantage of the solar sweetheart deal are screwed.

    If the gov can and is willing to place a moratorium on drilling then it assumed that they can and will do it again in the future. This has long lasting effects on the willingness of one to invest in such drilling in the future. A clasic example of the effect of this kind of gov policy was during the time of the Carter Administration. He put an embargo on grain shipments to the Soviet Union as a result of the invasion of Afganistan. Even though it was lifted after the Carter Admin. we never got the business back until just recently.

  4. #24
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Apology accepted!

    In response to your earlier post asking for a defense of the energy policy. I am not in a position to write one, but the short answer is there is no such animal. I'd like to see one but Washington is just too busy trying to score points on each other.
    Zeus

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  5. #25
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff, Sarge, on the dry geo-thermal plant. Why did it fail?

    Speaking of the panda poo again, there are some people running their diesel cars on used cooking oil. They get the oil free from places like McDonalds who are glad not to have to pay for disposal of the oil. Wonder if this could also be a way to re-cycle engine oil? The car owners do have to invest in some retrofitting of the diesel engines to accommodate the different fuel. Not quite sure how they would re-fill for long-distance trips, but works for local travel.

    Can't imagine a geo-thermal system that would cost $350K! Must have been for a large installation? For a normal residence, it might cost around $30K around here. In this area, the ones I hear of use a well for the water source. The water is circulated back into the well. In such a system the circulating pump and the heat pump that uses the BTUs from the water would be the two "replacement" parts.

    For home heating, pellet stoves seem to be a good option. No chimneys to maintain. The pellets are essentially "waste" from other wood products. Pellets made from corn can also be burned in some stoves, but the augers need more frequent cleaning due to the higher moisture in the corn. (I think they use corn cobs, but won't swear to that).
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  6. #26
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    I think Cary was talking about a $350,000 solar power array and all the government subsidies that came with it.

    Whether we like it or not ours is a subsidy driven society. Every phase of our living is supported by some sort of subsidy whether it is energy or food production, student tuition or sports stadiums. Overdone? I think so.

    But, sometimes the market forces are such that there is no interest in developing alternatives in the face of an oncoming crisis. Government subsidized R&D is warranted at that point. After all the government supported the research that led to the development of nuclear power. Government subsidized research led to safety standards for cars and a s a result thousands of lives have been saved.

    As for geothermal I guess I was speaking to a megasystem while Gerry was speaking about a microsystem for home heating. Home geothermal involves the use of a heat pump to heat a home. It extracts heat from the ground in the winter and pumps it back in in the summer. A friend in Wisconsin is a ground water geologist. He heats his home with heat extracted from ground water. He states you need 3 gal/min. flow in the well to make it work. There are problems if too many people pump from the same aquifer. You need a place to discharge the water after it runs through the system. Then there is the cost of pumping the water.

    The Sandia project's problems, if I recall correctly had a lot to do with the engineering of the wells to provide the heat source. They were not designed with a big enough reservoir to provide heat for the plant. They weren't able to get enough power to drive the pumps. But in the 80's, the concept was in the early development stage and failures are the normal course of business at that stage.

    Geothermal like wind/solar won't go into your gas tank unless better batteries become available. But, anything that that weans stationary power plants off petroleum frees up the supply for other uses in the interim.

    I did a search for dry geothermal. There is a lot of interesting stuff out there. Here is just one link.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system
    Last edited by zeus3925; 09-04-2011 at 10:01 AM.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  7. #27
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    As for geothermal I guess I was speaking to a megasystem while Gerry was speaking about a microsystem for home heating. Home geothermal involves the use of a heat pump to heat a home. It extracts heat from the ground in the winter and pumps it back in in the summer. A friend in Wisconsin is a ground water geologist. He heats his home with heat extracted from ground water. He states you need 3 gal/min. flow in the well to make it work. There are problems if too many people pump from the same aquifer. You need a place to discharge the water after it runs through the system. Then there is the cost of pumping the water.

    Yes, Zeus, I was talking about individual systems.

    Discharging water is cheaper than returning it to the well (closed loop). A pond can also be used as an alternative to a well.

    My well gets 40 ga/min. Well pumps can only pump 10 gal/min ... so my existing well has "excess" ... but I would only want a closed loop, so that water is not "wasted".

    The theory is that the circulating pump used to circulate the 55 deg water uses far less electricity than the resistance heating that might otherwise be used.

    I'm not good at engineering stuff, but it would seem that, in the closed loop system, was the loop has been filled initially, the circulating pump would keep the water moving.

    Some systems put coils in the ground below the frost line, and circulate a liquid (not necessarily water) through the coils. Penn State dubbed their system the "slinky" from the appearance of the multiple coils. Most effective when installed during new construction due to the excavation issue.

    I do agree that tax incentives can help promote such systems to take some of the pressure off oil for home heating.

    There are other ways we could conserve oil as well. I have a heat pump water heater. Uses 1/3 the annual electricity of a similar-size, traditional water heater. In warm climates, like FL, they are placed in garages and there is never a shortage of BTUs in the surrounding air.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie R. View Post
    I think he's referring to those recent studies where they're using panda poop to generate power.
    In NC it's chicken poop. Of course with a governor named Perdue, should we expect anything else?
    Hihope Hiland Heathen of Perth CD, RE, CGC, TDI

  9. #29
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    http://www.nesea.org/openhouse/listi...e=PA&submit=GO

    I found this interesting. I think that photovoltaic & geothermal offer options for home use. Perhaps not in large scale installations, but these examples of "green" housing show promise. The key would be finding how to make installations more affordable for "man on the street".
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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