RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Ichthyosis in Goldens

23K views 69 replies 17 participants last post by  hotel4dogs 
#1 ·
I was wondering if any other Golden Breeders are starting to test for this? If so, has anyone considered a data base, like we do for PRA? Or perhaps a line in k9data.com?

I had a litter last year with some affected puppies. The flaking was mild and at 6 months old, the pup with the worst flaking has no symptoms. Of course, I am not repeating that breeding in the future. As I considered the options for next year's litter I realized that I don't have any resources to determine which boys are carriers and which ones are clear.

Any ideas or feedback?

ps - I am starting to test my dogs but at the prices Optigen charges, it will take a few months.
 
#35 ·
I agree with you, Barb. I have seen breedings to carriers by bitches that have not been tested. It's very easy to get the test done if they have already done prcd-PRA. The sample is already at Optigen. Since Trek is a carrier, I have now included in my contract a requirement that the bitch not only have the main four clearances but that they also be tested for Ichthyosis. Then everyone can make an informed decision about the breeding. So far, every owner of a bitch that has been bred to Trek since I found out about his status has been willing to have the test done even if they were previously unaware of the condition or the test.
 
#37 ·
I've added that to my requirements now, too, Judy. Although in comparison to other *issues* in goldens ichthyosis is relatively minor, why pass it on when we have the ability to selectively breed to prevent it?
 
#38 ·
I think that we all missed the point (good) point of Judy's "Then everyone can make an informed decision about the breeding".
Keep in mind that testing and publishing the results in whatever printed venue SHOULD be about informing the public NOT chastizing a particular breeding or dog.
Ichthyosis is NOT the end of the world. It does NOT follow a norm. It comes in different forms. It can effect one dog differently than another. One dog can have very little flaking while another can have allot.
Fish oils being a blood thinner??????????
Never heard that one before. I take 2 very large pills every day per my doctors instructions for my slightly high cholesteral.
I personally won't have a problem breeding to a carrier of anything "IF" my gals were clear. I would rather have MY options of a bigger gene pool to work with rather than settling to what was left even though Perfect!!!!!!!! :(
I also think that the structure of a dog is more important than the other tests. But that's my own opinion :)
Sue
 
#40 ·
I wasn't disagreeing with Judy at all, I'm sorry if it came across that way. My boy is a carrier, and I have no problem breeding him to clear bitches, and the people who I've talked to about breeding to him have no problem breeding to him as long as their bitches are clear. I just don't want to breed him to a carrier or affected bitch.
Fish oils are, btw, a blood thinner. My husband takes them on the advice of his cardiologist, and he has to stop taking them 3-4 weeks before any major procedures.
 
#39 ·
Just thinking out loud Gerry, I think the biggest problem is that so many veterinarians don't appear to be familiar with the disease in goldens. They misdiagnose it as allergies, thyroid, food problems, and so on. Just like many vets were not, until recently, familiar with PU. So we can't tell how much of a problem it really is until the vets start diagnosing it.
My older boy had what I am sure, in hindsight, was ichthyosis, but I never knew that's what it was. His symptoms fit 100%. But the vet never called it that. His flared and remitted throughout his life, it was bad when he was around 2 years old, then it seemed to pretty much resolve itself until he was about 8. Then it came and went until he died at almost 14.
It was never anything other than a cosmetic issue with him. Although as I said, he did develop chronic demodex at about 10 years old, so is there a relationship there? Or was that because he had his spleen out and the anti-parasitic T-cells are largely manufactured in the spleen?
Now here's a bizarre thought....my boy lived to be almost 14, and appeared to be cancer free other than a soft tissue tumor on his wrist that didn't metastasize as far as we know. Perhaps (I throw this out there as I said, as a bizarre thought) we should check the life expectancy of the dogs with ichthyosis versus clear dogs? Are affected dogs, due to a difference in lipid metabolism, less prone to cancer? Who knows?
I don't intend to stop breeding my boy because he's an ICT carrier, but I will only breed him to clear females. I don't think he should be automatically removed from the gene pool, he has a lot of other stuff to offer. But I don't think he has enough to offer that he should be bred to affected or carrier bitches.
 
#43 ·
I used the words "informed decision" very purposely. There may be times when a decision is reached to breed a carrier to a carrier or even to an affected, because, as Gerry points out, the gene pool is limited, and we need to be careful not to limit it to the point that it is no longer viable. But, in a carrier to carrier or carrier to affected situation, both the bitch owner and the puppy buyers should know the potential for affected puppies, and what, if any, compensation might be provided if a puppy does develop a significant problem. Or perhaps, in those situations, the bitch owner could test the litter prior to placing them. In any case, the more informed everyone is, the better for the breed.
 
#44 ·
Interesting articles, Sue. My older boy had adult onset, generalized demodex. It was on his face and all 4 legs. He was on and off of liquid ivermectin for the last several years of his life, which caused him some neurological issues. That was why I had to keep taking him off of it. He never could get to the full therapeutic dose, which might be why we never totally cleared it up.
The ichthyosis article seems to discuss the more severe form that is found in other breeds. From the little I've read, luckily the form that affects the goldens tends to be much less serious.
Especially good article on fish oil, anyone taking it should be aware of the blood thinning effects as it could be very important to them some day.
 
#46 ·
Gerry, thanks for the insight.

I agree with you that the quality of life for the affected dogs appear to be good, however, some of the reading I did indicated that the European dogs seem to be more severely affected by the disorder. We have no idea why some dogs are more severely affected than others.

Last year I had a litter with 7 out of 13 puppies affected. Off I went on a search of the disorder. My girl, Ruby showed no flakes but I talked with the stud owner and he revealed that his dog has had outbreaks of flakes from time to time. He thought it meant that it was time to give Henry a bath. Neither of us had heard of the disorder - much less the test.

Some/most of the puppies had flakes that were hard to find, one was very much covered in flakes. I placed the little girl who was the most affected with a friend. At 17 months old, this pup has grown into a bright, happy, healthy dog with a zest for life. She has outbreaks of flaking from time to time but the fish oil in her diet keeps it to a minimum. Regular swimming has also helped to keep it down. I am unsure it is because the water washes away flakes or if it helps to hydrate the skin. The disorder has NOT slowed her down in the least.

Looking at the pedigree of the parents of this litter, it is apparent that some very talented dogs (and therefore frequently bred) were carriers or affected. I have bred both dogs since that litter - but not with each other. My personal opinion is that I will breed around this recessive gene and not produce any litters that would have any affected puppies. It has also made me look more closely at frequently used sires. Although it is nice to see what a dog has already produced, these recent genetic tests have made me more aware of the hidden but long term impact that they can have on our shrinking gene pool.
 
#47 · (Edited)
Wondering..."some of the reading I did indicated that the European dogs seem to be more severely affected by the disorder. We have no idea why some dogs are more severely affected than others"..

Is the gene pool in Europe even less then here?..so carriers and affected were line bred more, or even outcross had many carriers/affected so it has become more severe?

If we are now select breeding to prevent both parents being carriers or affected producing litters..would possibly prevent a more serious Ichthyosis? .as in some other breeds as well?

This is a good thread...thanks..

ps...my Ranger is clear and Sebec is a carrier

Judy
 
#50 ·
From what recent research I've been doing on the British lines, they seem to have a higher COI on average than the US dogs. At least in that country, I think their breeding pool for field dogs is much smaller than here judging by the pedigrees I've been researching. They also seem to breed the bitches well into their 8th to 10th year, in the case of some I've seen in the more high achieving field dog pedigrees.

They have an interesting pedigree database there called Standfast Data. Similar to K9 Data, but different. You have to email the database administrator to become a "member" before you can do any searches, but it's worth it, if you're interested.
 
#49 ·
Carol, do you have to submit them to OFA or is Optigen doing it?
Thanks

ETA---LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jun 19 2012 23 GR-ICH63/23M-VPI-CAR ICHTHYOSIS

does that mean carrier?
 
#69 ·
Hi Barb,
Yes you have to submit them to OFA, the cost to record is $15.00 and yes the CAR means carrier. By the way, you can do a search on OFA for the Ichthyosis test and find all the dogs that have their results recorded. Currently only 76 dogs have their results recorded.
 
#51 ·
OFA will record any and all DNA test results from accredited laboratories, as far as I know. Some people are also testing for DM, although I believe that is very rare in Goldens. I believe the fee is $15 (though I haven't checked recently), www.GoldenDNA.org is at no charge (it depends on voluntary donations).

It would be tremendously valuable, I think, for us to keep track of the physical symptoms of ICT for future reference. Until now, people (including vets) simply haven't been familiar enough with the disease. If we are to know whether we can make symptoms worse by our breeding choices, we will only learn this if we collect the data. I'm not exactly sure how we can do that in an organized fashion so that the data can be most useful.

What we are learning is that DNA testing is not "the answer" to our problems. It is a "tool" to use in making breeding choices that minimize the probability of producing animals affected with diseases that can predictably affect the dog's quality of life. It has not removed any of the many variables we were already balancing in our breeding assessments ... it has just added more variables to consider in each breeding.

I begin to imagine that one day all breeders will have computer software to compute all this stuff ... much like k9data does with COIs.
 
#52 ·
I should know the answer to this, but I don't....didn't GRCA do a pretty big health survey recently? Did it include questions about ichythyosis?
 
#53 ·
Another forum to which I belong is just for golden retrievers, and it's surprising how often people post questions about skin problems in their dogs, which are almost beyond a doubt symptoms of ichthyosis, but no one seems to have heard of it or know what it is, including the vets.
 
#54 ·
I agree whole heartedly. I am so lucky that my vet is the BEST and knew ICH as soon as he saw it in my puppies. Out came his reference books and he went over it with me before I left he office. I know that the other vet in the area would never have noticed the flakes.

I also started noting a trend in puppy buyers in the last few years. It seems that more and more families tell horror stories of skin disorders and allergies in the Golden that they recently lost.

Of course, then I also get an equal number of families that feel the price of a well bred Golden is too high. These folks wont listen when I explain the vet costs that they might end up paying for the $250 dog out of the newspaper with no health clearances or dna testing.
 
#56 ·
Whistler's brother was affected, I assume Whistler was, and I think Carbon is, as once a year we struggle a little with flakes. However, Carbon will not be bred, so I won't test him.
If I use frozen Whistler, I will warn the puppy people, but it won't stop me from using it. His siblings lived to be over 12, one to close to 16. I will look for that and talent, and what I consider crippling issues. I do not consider once a year flakes crippling. He had very few issues late in life.
I really do worry about over testing for everything, as we are going to get the golden breed in the same trouble flatcoats got themselves into. Oh well.
 
#57 ·
I really do worry about over testing for everything, as we are going to get the golden breed in the same trouble flatcoats got themselves into.
We are fortunate that we have the experience of other breeds to guide us in using testing wisely. To follow on John's post as well, the whole thing about this testing is to gather information so that we can evaluate information as wisely as possible, being aware of preserving genetic diversity and other important traits.

It means we have to be more thoughtful in the decisions we make, and more aware of long-term consequences for the breed.

So far I refuse to get a cell phone that is smarter than I am ... but eventually I'll probably have to give in. A lot of us can remember life before home computers were as commonplace as they are today. I still know a few people who don't have email. OMG! So smart phones and computers have made life easier in some ways; more annoying in other ways :) Yet, most of us wouldn't turn the technology clock backward. That's all we're really facing here ... more technology.
 
#58 ·
I think that the biggest pain of the Ichthyosis. is that it is awful when the public comes to pick up their "Perfect" puppy and it has flaky skin. And it is worse when they are little and fluffy and sooo cute....................
Also you have to remember that it seems to effect some puppies worse than others.
Certainly NOT the end of the world. :)
Sue
 
#59 ·
Along the same lines, I think the most important thing is educating vets, breeders, and the public about what Ichthyosis is, and isn't (allergies!). People would be a lot more accepting of it if they understood it, I think.
 
#63 ·
John,
While yes Pandora's box is open..............
I think that with the knowledge that we have now and the wonderful technology that will continue to be available to us in the future will help us make better decisions with breeding our Goldens.
I can't look into the past. Would I have bred to so and so knowing what I know now?
I look at some of the great ones now I think OMG would I love to have one of his puppies now.
Would I?, knowing what I know now. Yes.
John,
You will always have some folks that point fingers and sigh and make large comments about so and so's dog having this or that genetic disease and thank their lucky stars they didn't take a puppy or breed to that dog.
As I get older I laugh at the stupidity of it all and thank my lucky stars that I'm NOT that shallow.
Sue
 
#64 ·
I realize having the knowledge DNA provides doesn't preculude you from going ahead with the breeding regardless, but I believe that those breedings will become less likely.
It is up to those who understand to continue to educate those who may not be clear on this. We will have more tests in the future, not less ... we really must use the tools wisely and keep the gene pool diverse.

It's daunting to us right now because we are the "first generation" to have these tools. It is also going to be up to us to make sure we keep educating the next generation.

Sue also raises a good point, the more of us who share the information we gather openly, the more it encourages others to do the same. With the forthright data, we can all benefit.
 
#67 ·
Earlier on in this thread, someone asked if anyone had any pictures. I have a friend who is a groomer. She has a client dog, with very severe Ichthyosis. This may be an extreme case, but I think we have to take this seriously, and breed to not produce more "affecteds". With the number of carriers (including my own girl) I wonder if there will be any clears in 10-15 years?

This is from Leanne Tucker (she joined the group, but can't post a URL yet):


I groom an English line Golden that is affected with Ichthyosis. I took pictures of him last year. His skin condition was finally diagnosed via a skin biopsy as their regular vet had no idea what was going on with him. Back then I didn't have a clue either! Once I did some research I had the owners submit blood for the DNA test ... of course it confirmed his skin biopsy results. Sammy is a happy guy, but for his owners it is VERY bothersome. He leaves skin flakes everywhere he goes. These pictures show how he is all the time. He is in for grooming every three weeks with a special shampoo to re-hydrate his skin. Thyroid is clear and he doesn't seem to have allergies. He is on all sorts of fish oils etc. He is not itchy at all, but if he has any skin irritation ie: hotspot, it takes weeks to heal.


http://sammyskin.imgur.com/69PR2#mbHq9

These were taken after his bath and high velocity blow dry. I start blow drying him in the tub, I should have taken a picture of the bath tub and the flakes too. I think there is a huge variance in how it affects dogs, this dog seems to be quite the extreme.
 
#68 ·
Here is another ichthyosis picture, a grooming client of mine 11 year old neutered male "pet pedigree"
This is his left back leg. His WHOLE BODY was covered in this extraordinary dandruff.

 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top