RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Ichthyosis in Goldens

23K views 69 replies 17 participants last post by  hotel4dogs 
#1 ·
I was wondering if any other Golden Breeders are starting to test for this? If so, has anyone considered a data base, like we do for PRA? Or perhaps a line in k9data.com?

I had a litter last year with some affected puppies. The flaking was mild and at 6 months old, the pup with the worst flaking has no symptoms. Of course, I am not repeating that breeding in the future. As I considered the options for next year's litter I realized that I don't have any resources to determine which boys are carriers and which ones are clear.

Any ideas or feedback?

ps - I am starting to test my dogs but at the prices Optigen charges, it will take a few months.
 
#2 ·
#3 ·
Thanks Sue,

It was depressing at the time to realize that despite all my efforts to breed healthy, quality puppies that this recessive genetic had shown up. But recessive is just that - recessive. Both parents are excellent dogs, titled, with great pedigrees, all their health clearances. They have value to future generations of Goldens. Just not with each other.

I like the link to the skin supliment. One of my families added fish oil to the diet and that helped enormously. Another breeder told me that additional swim time helps to hydrate the skin and keep the flakes down.

There is a good article in the May/June issue of Golden Retriever News on Ichthyosis. Of course, this magazine came out in July and my puppies were born in May.

I have no problem breeding around a genetic problem, but I want to be able to identify the dogs who are carriers.

I am having the samples that I have at Optigen tested for Ich but some of my dogs are prcd-PRA clear by parentage and now I have to do blood draws on them.
 
#4 ·
The optigen test is the answer.
I just did PRA-prcd & ichthyosis on Fisher, the ichthyosis test came back today as clear and still waiting in prcd.
 
#7 ·
When you get your results you can submit them to http://www.goldendna.org/ for listing. I have not heard yet whether OFA will be listing those results as it will do with the PRA tests.
I'm sure OFA will start listing them. Probably takes them some time to get their website coding done to add new stuff like this. When GoldenDNA started, we anticipated that new tests would get added. Since it is a much smaller group than OFA has to deal with, it can be done more easily.

The good news is that more clear ICT results have been coming in over the past 7 to 10 days. Looking more hopeful that the original listings were skewed by those dogs where ICT was already suspected. Webmaster has had to schedule periodic updates to the site since there has been a lot of volume lately.
 
#6 ·
my 5 y/o old male has it. Was much worse when he was younger. Flairs up twice a year as he sheds his coat. Fish oil pills twice a day helps a lot.
I'd never even heard of it until he started looking like a walking snow storm as a pup. It's not the end of the world as I thought when he was diagnosed with it.

You're somewhat local to me. He came out of Minneapolis. Any connections in bloodlines?
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=234406

I found out after the fact that his sire has it also.
 
#48 ·
Just an FYI, OFA is posting Icthyosis results:


NAME REGISTRATION BREED SEX COLOR TEST/FILM DATE AGE OFA # TEST
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jul 26 2012 24 GR-CA22436/24M/C-VPI CARDIAC
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jul 30 2012 24 GR-106408G24M-VPI HIPS
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jul 30 2012 24 GR-EL27154M24-VPI ELBOW
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jun 11 2012 22 GR-PRA244/22M-VPI PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jun 13 2012 22 GR-GR177/22M-VPI GR1 PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHY
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Jun 19 2012 23 GR-ICH63/23M-VPI-CAR ICHTHYOSIS
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN Mar 2 2012 20 GR-346312 CERF
LORFIELD'S I GET AROUND SR63736205 GOLDEN RETRIEVER M GOLDEN May 30 2012 22 GR-TH2261/22M-VPI THYROID
 
#11 ·
Leslie, if Optigen already has tested your dog for prcd, you will NOT have to send a new sample. When you order your test, when it tells you to select the type of sample you are sending, check the box for "long-term storage".

Shelly, Trooper's test for ICT just came back clear :) Should be on GoldenDNA.org with next update.

Have also noted from listings being submitted that PRA1 doesn't seem to be as widespread as prcd is among the field lines. The "theory" seemed to be that PRA1 would be more likely to show up in UK/Euro lines. That does seem to be the case ... but it could also be that some as-yet-unidentified PRA gene is more responsible for PRA even in those lines than the PRA1 gene. The PRA1 testing that is coming in is more random than the prcd testing was in the first year.

Right now you have to submit (on GoldenDNA) a separate permission for each test (and the test results, too). Have asked the webmaster about being able to combine multiple permissions on one form ... but I'm not the techy one, so don't know how soon that can be accomplished.
 
#13 ·
Garden State GRC is having a health clinic on 4/22/12. If you already have tested a dog for something with Optigen, you can use the Garden State clinic code to do additional testing on your dog. (GSGRC124)

This applies to all breeds ... but you CANNOT send new samples direct to Optigen with this code. The clinic discount only applies to samples sent with the on-site clinic shipment OR samples already in-house with Optigen from previous testing.

The Optigen website does not specify the discount code period. Usually the codes are good about one week prior to the actual clinic & one week after. You will need to check with Optigen on that.
 
#14 ·
Gerry,
"The Optigen website does not specify the discount code period. Usually the codes are good about one week prior to the actual clinic & one week after. You will need to check with Optigen on that."
So I have to wait till a week before clinic or a week after to order the tests for Icth. on the 3 Goldens that have been tested for pra-prcd?
Sue
 
#17 ·
You can send an email to the 20/20 Clinic Coordinator. Should be a "contact us" button there somewhere.

Yes, you will have to wait until the clinic code is "active" to get the discounted price.

You can order the test any time. Since they have your dogs' DNA samples already, all you have to do is fill out the online order form & pay by credit card. (I don't think they take Discover or American Express).

With just the online ordering discount the ICT test comes to $114; with the clinic discount it comes out to $90. So, for 3 dogs, it does begin to add up.
 
#16 ·
Sue,

I have a Lab that has an area with little hair and with some scarring due to surgery. He tends to scratch it at times so I ordered the Demoscent Essential which you recommended to try and reduce any itchiness. How did you do the initial applications since he is in water on a fairly regular basis. Did this present a problem?

Thanks. I appreciate the site for purchasing various products.

Glenda
 
#18 ·
I also got some other questions:

3 dogs that I think that I would like to test for icthyosis, and possibly the PRA1. They have already been tested for prcd-PRA. Is there one particular person whom we contact?
No. You just fill out the online order form & check the box that says "sample in storage" (or something like that)
And then you put in the clinic code on the form.

Do you know what the discount prices are going to be?
If you do more than one test on the same dog ... with a clinic discount you can get both the ICT and PRA1 test for about $134 ... 45% discount; 20% discount for doing more than one test on the same dog; 20% clinic discount; 5% discount for online ordering. It's almost like getting one test free :) Testing for both with the clinic discount is only $20 more than testing for ONLY ICT with only the online ordering discount.

Should we contact OPtigen now and tell them that we want to do it during this discount period?
You can contact Optigen to ask about when the discount code will be active.

They probably didn't post a time period (as they usually do), because they didn't expect a bargain-hunter (me) to ask them about using the code for previously stored samples.

Please do contact them to ask for the time period ... and share.

Even if you did not pay for long-term storage, we found out last Sept. that they have held onto virtually all the samples previously submitted simply because they had space available to do so. When they run out of space, they will start discarding the oldest samples first ... unless you did pay for 10-year storage.

These are all simple, autosomal recessive mutations ... so some people have looked at their pedigrees carefully & tested selectively. I don't do the DNA testing until AFTER I do hips and elbows. Some people have shared testing costs with the owner of their litters' sires ... saving $ for both parties.

Yes, this begins to get expensive with multiple dogs! If you want to discuss specific groups of dogs for cost-conscious testing, just email me at my direct email address ... PMs are cumbersome.

Also, don't forget that the GRCA Natl Spec clinic is a great time to do testing. For all 3 tests on one dog, it works out great with 45% discount on all the tests ... don't recall all the #s off the top of my head, but it's something like $233 for all three, which would regularly cost $395. $233 is only about $50 more than you'd pay for prcd testing alone without the clinic discount.

Most recent stats on www.GoldenDNA.org show that of 113 dogs listed, 11 are affected & 46 carriers. That's just over 50% that carry at least one copy of this mutated gene.

We're very fortunate that this particular disease is not a really big issue in Goldens even for affected dogs. However, in spite of that some service groups find it unacceptable due to cosmetic issues for dogs that go to public places.

Even though this mutation seems to be widespread across a broad spectrum of bloodlines, we should always be wary of being too quick to cull carriers, or even affected dogs ... when the next DNA test comes along, it may be a more serious disease and those dogs may be "clear" for whatever that "new" disease might be.
 
#19 ·
I also got some other questions:



We're very fortunate that this particular disease is not a really big issue in Goldens even for affected dogs. However, in spite of that some service groups find it unacceptable due to cosmetic issues for dogs that go to public places.

Even though this mutation seems to be widespread across a broad spectrum of bloodlines, we should always be wary of being too quick to cull carriers, or even affected dogs ... when the next DNA test comes along, it may be a more serious disease and those dogs may be "clear" for whatever that "new" disease might be.

I strongly agree that we should not eliminate these dogs from the gene pool. We already have a shrinking gene pool and who knows what else will rise to the surface.

We are lucky in that ICH has a wide range in the degree it affects the dog. Some dogs only have mild flaking at times to a perpetual hardening of the skin, hair loss, and discomfort.

Thank you Gerry for goldendna.com. and the owners who test and post the results of their dogs. It gives all of us the information to make informed decisions when breeding our dogs.

I am planning to breed my ICH carrier girl again - but to a clear male.
 
#20 ·
We are lucky in that ICH has a wide range in the degree it affects the dog. Some dogs only have mild flaking at times to a perpetual hardening of the skin, hair loss, and discomfort.
I had not heard of any Goldens with this disease having hair loss or discomfort, even when they have extensive flaking that persists into adulthood. However, I have to admit to knowing very little about ICT, am only going by what I hear from those who have experienced it.

Evidently, other breeds DO have some significant problems. In humans the disease can also effect the eyes. In fetal development eye and skin cells both originate from fetal epithelial cells, so I can see that possible connection. Can also see where it would be a seriouso problem if the flaking issue included eye cells after birth.

So, it's wise for us to be intelligently cautious without getting hysterical. Probably a good path regardless of what disease we have to deal with in our dogs.

Interestingly, as we learn more about diseases at the genetic level and how the same mutated genes can occur in very unrelated dog families, outcrossing can still turn up unexpected problems. Dog breeding is getting more complex!
 
#21 ·
Gerry, do you know if they will offer discounted testing at the GRCA national for just the PRA1 and ICT? Some of the dogs will have already been tested for prcd-PRA.
Thanks
 
#22 ·
When Optigen testing is available at the National Specialty, the clinic discounts work the same as always ... if you do more than one test, you get 45% discount. You DO NOT have to do all 3 to get a multiple-test discount.

So, with a clinic discount for those two tests, the cost is around $133. The regular price for ICT only would be $114. Thus, you get the PRA1 test for only about $30 more. That's quite a good deal.

And, if the dog has already been tested for prcd, then you just have to order the new tests ... don't even have to send in a new sample.

There are some people with "clear by parentage" dogs that can also take advantage on a special price for prcd testing of such dogs. If both parents were tested by Optigen as clear, you can check offspring for just $95. Only gets the online discount of 5%, so about $90. (Of course they have no sample for that dog, so you DO have to send a sample). Since that pricing is already more than 50% of the regular price, they don't offer a clinic discount for that. But if you do it at the National Spec, you do save on blood draw and shipping.

Why would we do this? First, because "clear by parentage" is only accepted generally for one generation. Second, for those who question the accuracy of the test (a question raised before by some), it can confirm that the original testing of the parents was accurate.

Probably more useful for stud dogs, and there are a couple of stud dog owners who have used this particular discount.

I'm wondering if they will come out with a similar "deal" for the other tests? However, Optigen doesn't "own" those other tests as they do the prcd test; so such a decision would be up to AHT or Antagene.
 
#26 ·
Glenda,
The essential oils are such an oil base. They shouldn't simply just wash away by swimming. But "IF" you should chose to bathe your dog the doggy shampoo will dissolve the oils and will wash away.


tzappia,
I haven't yet seen a "Proper" diet control the icty. But adding amega 3's and other fatty acids don't hurt.I can say that over the yrs. the general public "IS" feeding their pets better foods. Rarely do I see at my boarding kennel (generic-type foods).
The disease is there it always will be. it is more of a pain when you have puppies ready to go home because they are small and cute and their little bodies are changing daily and the more you brush the worse it seems to be ,new owners want that "Perfect" golden and and and................

I also have NOT seen discomfort,hardening of the skin or hair loss. I do like the essential oils. It makes the whole house smell nice:) too.
Sue
 
#27 ·
Does anyone have a photo of an affected puppy?
Google search shows humans affected with this condition :(
 
#28 ·
Haven't seen any photos of affected pups, but on another list someone had posted a photo of an adult with significant flaking.

The dog was standing on a grooming table & that amount of "dandruff" on the table was like he was standing in a light snowfall. I was really surprised by the large amount of flakes ... the dog had apparently just been brushed.
 
#29 ·
I know this is an older thread....someone on another forum asked if anyone knows the proper dose of fish oil for an affected dog who has pretty bad flaking?? Any ideas?
 
#30 ·
Glad you "resurrected" this thread, Barb.

Antagene has explained that the fish oils can help because ICT is a problem with the lipid process ... so adding oils can help. However, it is not certain that this will help all dogs, but it might help some. So, you'll probably be using trial-and-error to find out what dosage works for each individual dog.

I'm not certain, but I think that these fish oils are also blood thinners. If so, then if you have a surgical procedure scheduled for such a dog, you may want to discontinue the oils for a period of time prior to surgery or teeth cleaning. Ask your vet about this.

On other lists, the question of affected dogs included the mention of the flakes being large, being hyper-pigmented (black), and there being an odor associated with the condition. Due to the poor skin condition, secondary bacterial infections could present a problem as well from a maintenance standpoint.

It would be really helpful if people would share more first-hand experiences with affected dogs. There have been some breedings done of carrXcarr; carrXaffected; and even affXaff dogs. Some intentional, some when people were unaware of the testing available & unsuspecting that the disease might be present. Easy to do when some dogs are affected and have no apparent symptoms!

My sense is that most people do not see ICT as any significant quality of life issue ... and at this point, I tend to agree with them. But (there's always a "but", isn't there?) what if we're not right about that? The data gained from these CxC, CxA, and AxA breedings could be very helpful in letting us know whether we can "relax" in regard to this particular disease or should be more conscious of breeding affected dogs.


Based on Antagene's statistics thru 7/31/1, we have almost 50% of US/Can Goldens (of those tested) who are carriers or affected ... so we don't have an over-abundant supply of dogs who have no copy of the mutated gene. If practical experience shows this disease to be more troublesome than it appears now, then we will want to hold ground and preserve a reservoir of "clear" dogs to breed to carriers and affecteds.

With prcd, even at our worst, we were running about 20% carriers, and very few affected. We had (and continue to have) a large reservoir of dogs with no copy of the mutated gene ... plenty of dogs to breed to carriers or affected with safety. We could effectively "manage" the disease very well and maintain a majority of clear dogs in the gene pool (while still breeding carriers that have merit in other respects).

I recently bred a 3-clear bitch to a carrier sire for both prcd and ICT ... all 3 bitch puppies came up clear for prcd! I could hardly believe that. However, on ICT only one of the bitch pups was clear for that as well. Yet, there are still the hips, elbows to worry about. And, then we still have to evaluate which of those three girls might have the most merit for reproducing ... based on the other traits that we seek in our breeding programs. We'll still have to apply the "art" of breeding to the "science" of DNA (& other health) testing.

But we still need to know what the real-life data is to make reasonable decisions for breeding.

BTW, two of the dogs who tested affected for prcd as youngsters, are now about 6 years old. So far they both have normal eye exams. Daphne, the original affected that was found, is now over 10. She has some minimal vision left, but if she were human you would say she is "legally" blind. She still enjoys retrieving bumpers in her yard :) She had great fun doing a "glory run" in agility where entries were donated to charity ... she knocked down every bar since she could not see them, but jumped every time her "mom" told her to :)

To brag for Mardi Closson who owns Daphne, her breeding choice allowed Daphne to leave a remarkable heritage ... of her 9 puppies in her one litter, 8 of them achieved titles to qualify her for Outstanding Dam status with GRCA; 3 MACHs, 3 Agility Hall of Fame, 2 USDAA agility Champions, and one NADAC agility champion; a couple of WCs, CCAs, and a TDX also in the mix; and her only daughter to be bred also became an Outstanding Dam with 13 qualifying get of her own.
 
#31 · (Edited)
thanks Gerry, I will pass that along about the fish oil.
On GoldenDNA it looks like about 70% of the dogs are either affected or carriers. Just got the test results back from the DNA test we did at National, my boy is an ICT carrier. Luckily he is prcd-PRA clear and PRA-1 clear. Anyway, he will now only be bred to bitches who have been tested and are ICT clear.
I hope a lot of the people who had their dogs tested at National post the results to goldendna. I will as soon as I get the formal paperwork from Optigen (only got the email so far).
In hindsight, my older boy had ICT. It was misdiagnosed as allergies, but he was never itchy. Just lots of flaky skin, and ultimately hyperpigmentation. It tended to flare up under times of extreme stress. We controlled it with medicated shampoo, but again, we didn't know what it was. He also developed late onset demodex, which we fought for about 4 years until he eventually passed on this year. I wonder if there was any relationship between the ICT and the demodex?
The dog had all sorts of problems. He was blind from PU, had IBD, had no spleen, had demodex, had hip dysplasia, but lived 14 happy years. He was my heart dog.
 
#32 · (Edited)
On GoldenDNA it looks like about 70% of the dogs are either affected or carriers
I was mistaken ... here are the statistics from Antagene for ICT testing as of 7/31/2012 (they were published on GoldenDNA's Facebook page a few months ago.
- Australia : 47,7% clear, 40,9% carrier, 11,4% affected (number of dogs has slightly increased)

- USA : 38,9% clear, 47,1% carrier, 14% affected

- Europe : 16,8% clear, 40,1% carrier, 43,1% affected
These are the stats on 900 dogs tested in each Europe and USA; only about 138 dogs tested in Australia. So US/Canada has less than 40% clear. It would appear that owners with clear-tested dogs are not as likely to list their results on GoldenDNA.org?

Since the reservoir of clear dogs is rather small, it's really helpful to list them in ways that people can find them easily. With so many carriers of the mutation, many people want/need to limit their choices to clear sires.

Unfortunately, you cannot search for "clear by parentage" on GoldenDNA. We only record dogs who have actually been tested. You might want to use k9data "honorifics" field for that ... since if you put the info in the health clearance fields, you cannot search with that field.

Back in the 4rd Quarter of 2011, a total of 145 Goldens were tested in that period for ICT (per Optigen statistics). That would not have included our Natl Specialty in 2011 where my count was My best count from the Natl Specialty this year was 95 Goldens tested for ICT! That increased the Antagene database in USA by 10% in just one swoop! It was the most "popular" test among the 113 dogs tested.

I noticed that Winter Discount Days at Optigen in 2011 were Jan. 2 - 16. If anyone missed testing at the National, watch for the winter discount days this year.
 
#34 ·
I find it disheartening that only 900 dogs in the USA have been tested....out of how many registered golden retrievers? And how many breeding dogs?
Of almost 2000 goldens at National (I heard that estimate but believe it to be high) only 95 were tested for something that is found in almost 70% of the breed?


These are the stats on 900 dogs tested in each Europe and USA; only about 138 dogs tested in Australia. So US/Canada has less than 40% clear.
My best count from the Natl Specialty this year was 95 Goldens tested for ICT! That increased the Antagene database in USA by 10% in just one swoop! It was the most "popular" test among the 113 dogs tested.

.
 
#33 ·
I also think that it's very important for owners of the bitches to test as well as the stud dogs. With the chances almost 70% that the stud dog is either a carrier or affected, it becomes crucial to know the bitch's status, just in case the stud dog hasn't been tested.
Ran into this very recently.....bitch not tested....decided against my boy because he's a carrier. Not a problem. Except the stud they are going with hasn't been tested. Doesn't seem to "get it" that the stud dog has a 70% chance of being either a carrier or affected! Apparently, because he hasn't been tested, he must be clear?
I don't understand the "head in the sand" mentality.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top