RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Thoughts on overtraining and injuries......

4K views 30 replies 22 participants last post by  frontier 
#1 ·
It has occured to myself and others that we may be asking our retreivers to do more than they may be physically bred to do. Kind of like asking football
players to play basketball or run marathons. Often the fields we use may
be rough or have unseen dips etc. It has been said that eight quality marks a day, plus a couple of blinds might be the standard for field trial success.

Recent marks or blinds might be in excess of 400 yards. Lets say average
of 250 yrds x 10 per day is 2500 yards .........7500 feet. About 1 1/2 miles
at pretty much top speed.

Cruciate,shoulder,pastern, and other assorted leg injuries seem to be more common.

I would be interested in thoughts and helpful suggestions from the board.
 
#16 · (Edited)
...caution with very young retrievers...growing, growth plates in place etc. Two years of age+- ?

As Bon said..."recovery time"..

Good thread.

Judy
 
#5 ·
these dogs are athletes, and athletes get injured, many times is just being damn unlucky, one missed step, one stupid gopher hole, one inhaled grass spear..I am sure that some may be caused by over training or due to the lack of proper conditioning or warm up by the handler, but most of these dogs just dont know when to quit

the best thing you can do as an owner/trainer is to inspect your training grounds and decide where the hazards may be,condition your dog, but leave something in the tank
 
#6 ·
It's absolutely amazing they don't incur more serious injuries than they do!

Keep them in condition, be prudent in where you send them (especially in unfamiliar territory) and hope for the best. It's like having a kid playing football; prepare for the unavoidable risk and hope for the best.

http://www.gopetplan.com/

JS
 
#7 ·
It seems to me that the best chance for preventing injuries is to have the dog as fit as possible. That tells me, train long and hard on your known grounds, so that when you do encounter tough terrain, they are better able to handle it. No?
 
#9 ·
another small point is warm your dog up a little before asking for major athletic performance. Just a little walking around, some walking sideways and backwards, turning the head to touch the flank, etc. will loosen up the muscles a bit and help prevent injuries. We do it in obedience and agility just to be on the safe side.
 
#10 ·
Good points made about fitness, warm up etc.

Cruciate,shoulder,pastern, and other assorted leg injuries seem to be more common.

I would be interested in thoughts and helpful suggestions from the board.
I don't think any of those except cruciate ligament injuries are becoming more common. And I suspect cruciate injuries are on the rise in retrievers because it has a high degree of heritability. I used to think it was the field lab breeders' dirty little secret but costly TPLO surgeries are happening far too frequently in Chesapeakes too (not sure about Goldens--maybe someone who knows can weigh in). In most cases if a dog injures the cruciate badly enough to need surgery a little digging will unearth parents, siblings or other close relatives with similar injuries.

No matter how much I liked a dog I would not use it in a breeding program if it had needed cruciate surgery. Frankly I think mild CHD is easier and cheaper to manage than forking over thousands for 2 TPLOs, a year off a dog's already short working life and the rigorous rehab. What a horrible thing to saddle puppy buyers with!
Rumor has it there's a test being developed that might indicate susceptibility to it but for the time being it's right up there with bad disposition on the "never in my breeding program" list.
 
#20 ·
I've been told by 2 different vets that they each believe the increase in cruciate ligament injuries is largely due to the lack of rear angulation in a lot of dogs now. That, would, in fact be hereditary and might explain why it seems to occur more in certain lines.


Good points made about fitness, warm up etc.



I don't think any of those except cruciate ligament injuries are becoming more common. And I suspect cruciate injuries are on the rise in retrievers because it has a high degree of heritability. I used to think it was the field lab breeders' dirty little secret but costly TPLO surgeries are happening far too frequently in Chesapeakes too (not sure about Goldens--maybe someone who knows can weigh in). In most cases if a dog injures the cruciate badly enough to need surgery a little digging will unearth parents, siblings or other close relatives with similar injuries.

No matter how much I liked a dog I would not use it in a breeding program if it had needed cruciate surgery. Frankly I think mild CHD is easier and cheaper to manage than forking over thousands for 2 TPLOs, a year off a dog's already short working life and the rigorous rehab. What a horrible thing to saddle puppy buyers with!
Rumor has it there's a test being developed that might indicate susceptibility to it but for the time being it's right up there with bad disposition on the "never in my breeding program" list.
 
#11 ·
one other thing our high energy dogs need is rest and recovery, just like a well tuned athlete, our dogs need to stretch out after a weekend in a dog box,whether that rest occurs in the home or a comfy kennel,IMHO the less time a dog spends " on the road" in a dog box can only lengthen their already short careers...
 
#12 ·
Metabolic fatigue is the cause of most injuries that are not due to conformation or the unexpected. Fatigue occurs when the dog has depleted the energy the muscle cell has availible. The muscle loses contractility, which causes laxity of the tendons which help stabilize the joint. This only leaves ligaments to stabilze the joint, which eventually fails, resulting in a strain, sprain, avulsion or fracture.
Does overtraining cause fatigue? Only if you define overtraining as asking the dog to do more than it is physically fit to do, whether it be in one session, or several sessions without adequate rest and replenishment in between.
 
#13 ·
Perhaps in our quest for "higher drive", the breeding selection process is producing larger numbers of dogs in which the dog's drive is outstripping the dog's feedback mechanisms that protect the dog's structure and metabolism. That might apply to physical structure as in ACL injuries or to metabolic structure as in muscle metabolism. I personally suspect that EIC is a manifestation of that breeding selection process.
 
#14 ·
Yes, EIC is genetic. And there IS a test for it.
So is CNM, bad hips, elbows, ..................
As far as structure......................................
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I would say that most Field bred dogs COULDN'T complete a lifetime of training and trials IF the dog didn't have correct structure. THey may be uglier than sin BUT they have good structure.
Form follows function.
I would guess that most injuries fall under a couple of catagories.
1.) dumb luck as some have suggested
2.) Not physically able to complete the task and the body suffers for it.(injury)Whether that be NOT the correct dogfood (which I doubt considering the dogfood wars these days),or not conditioned.
NOT enough common sense in the world.
Sue
 
#21 ·
I suspect dogs who have cruciate ligament, pastern, shoulder etc. injuries don't compete in a lifetime of training and trials, they retire young.
As far as ugly, it depends on what you are calling ugly. To me, ugly has to do only with dogs who have a poor structure, nothing more. Field dogs are not ugly, IMO, as long as they have a correct structure which allows them to compete without the injuries that the OP was asking about. Some of the field bred dogs have breathtaking structures, at least in the goldens.
An ugly dog is one whose legs are much too long, or who has no front end assembly to speak of, or a straight, upright back end. They look like an injury looking for a place to happen. UGLY dogs.
Just my opinion of course.
 
#15 ·
Summary so far of some Great! responses.
In no particular order

1. Warm up your dog
2. Purchase a dog with good structure
3. Check for inherited defects
4. Watch your training grounds for danger
5. Feed a good quality dog food
6. Keep your dog in shape
7. Do not over stress,over exercise dogs
to the point where muscle mass energy is exhausted.
8. Be careful with dogs stuck in truck boxes for long periods.

Thanks for keeping up the discussion!
 
#17 ·
I think many dogs do not get as much activity as their ancestors. For instance, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers were famous for retrieving many birds, possibly a hundred or more a day for the market hunters. Many of the early retrievers were hunted hard and often on both land and water in the days of no limits so a dog that is with two guys who get their limits on ducks (or ran two long triples) has a pretty light day compared to his predecessors. The retrieves back then may have been shorter but there were many more of them. Also, retrievers were used more in upland hunting than they are now. Injuries just come with the territory with little sprains and strains. That said, there are certain dogs, possibly from genetics, that seem to be predisposed to things like cruciate tears. I know of one dog that tore one cruciate ligament twice and when that healed the second time, he tore the same one in the other leg.
 
#22 ·
While we hear all the stories about the dogs which retrieved 100 birds a day, we hear nothing about dogs that were injured and could no longer retrieve. It might be fair to say that there were just as many injured dogs back then as there are now. We just don't know that side of the story.
 
#19 ·
Good thread!

There's a nice short article on preventing injuries here: http://tinyurl.com/4yu87zb
It's the fourth article listed. The article includes some detail on proper approaches to conditioning, warmups, stretching, and cool downs, and shows some examples of active stretches, static stretches, and range of motion exercises. The article was written with agility competitors in mind, but the basic ideas are applicable to injury prevention in general.
 
#24 ·
Having been a serious equestrian competitor we would warm up the horses for 20-30 minutes and then same for cool down but I have had to remind myself of this with my dogs.
 
#25 ·
Summary so far of some great responses.
In no particular order

1. Warm up your dog
2. Purchase a dog with good structure
3. Check for inherited defects
4. Watch your training grounds for danger
5. Feed a good quality dog food
6. Keep your dog in shape
7. Do not over stress,over exercise dogs
to the point where muscle mass energy is exhausted.
8. Be careful with dogs stuck in truck boxes for long periods.
9. Watch out with truck tailgates......do not let young dogs jump down.
Use a ramp or help them down.
10. Be cautious with young dogs.....two years or less (Derby dogs)
growth plates etc.
Thanks for keeping up the discussion.
 
#26 ·
Speaking of tailgates. ..tailgate injuries.

Serious injuries occur when dogs catch foot/toes in that gap between truck bed and tailgate when lowered. Piece of carpeting or mat should cover that gap.

Judy
 
#27 ·
A few (and in fact a certain one) have been all about improving structure, building through generations more run and endurance etc. a lot learned from the upland specialists (Pointers/Setters)

Most of what gets discussed here is about on the picking up the ducks after you lure them in and shoot them.
That's only a part of what they are capable of with proper structure.
Hard core upland hunting is quite demanding and some can do it along with picking up the ducks,,,, same dog ! (and do it well).
I wonder if maybe we have just scratched the surface of what they are capable of ?
Just thinking outside the norm.
 
#28 ·
Hi I have a Lab .and he ran 25 miles in a day .with lots of breaks . as I drove my ATV. and when we got home he ran for his bumper to play . did not bother him at all . one day he does field work and the next he does water . we never missed one day in 3 years of exercise .
 
#29 ·
Our Lab Club had Dr. Fran Smith here this week to judge our Lab Show. She is President of OFA and on the Board of the Labrador Retriever Club. We had an interesting discussion about cruciate ligament injuries. There has been a lot of research funded in recent years by OFA and Canine Health Foundation dealing with cruciate ligament injuries and genetics. There is currently one abstract out and apparently another in publication showing no genetic link at this time. They looked at field vs show vs couch potatoes. In this study when they looked at the various lab types, they did show that if a dog (regardless of activity level) tore an ACL, they had a 50/50 chance of tearing the other. Interestingly enough, they are funding another study looking at stifle angles to see their relationship to predisposition to ACL tears.

For those with Veterinary Journal access, I imagine you can do a search to find the study or studies. I'm not on my work computer right now or I'd post a link. They might have been in JAVMA or one of the Orthopod journals.

In another conversation I had with Dr. Sherman Canapp, an Orthopod in Maryland (www.vosm.com) he concurred with Dr. Smith. Both also feel that one of the reasons that we are seeing more ACL injuries is that we are doing a better job diagnosing them. Owners, particularly those involved in competition, are also becoming more in tune with their dogs gait and are more likely to notice when things are 'off'.

I would suggest contacting Dr. Smith with more questions if you have them. She is a knowledgeable woman who will take the time to answer your questions. Also, contact the OFA or CHF for feedback on the studies they've funded. http://offa.org/research.html http://www.akcchf.org/research/


It might be interesting if Chris or the moderators could get her to join the forum and have a week where we can do a question and answer session with her or Dr. Canapp for that matter.

I myself, feel much better about some things related to ACL's after my conversations with both of them. I really feel we do a poor job of warming up and cooling down our dogs when training. And, don't forget the weekend warrior syndrome. And, having moderate show dogs that compete actively in hunt tests, I also feel that when we go to the extremes in type/style, those animals are probably not able to really do the work efficiently. Please, no comments about show/field...that subject has been beaten to death. :D

Interesting thread...thanks...

Sue Puff
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top