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Thread: Training a retreiver puppy by Hillmann ?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    John

    You never did answer:

    What Change?

    Gooser
    It was you that never answered my question.
    so I will pose it to you again, extrapolated to minimise the chance for your again misunderstanding what I am asking.

    Why change the Hillman kinder gentler training approch (protocol if you will) at 28 days. Don't you think that further training information in the form of a sequel to lets say the end of what is generically called "Transition" and beyond, could allow one to continue training in the same (kinder and gentler ) vein with similar awesome results ?

    As I told Glen... for the lack of such a sequel I improvised, using what I viewed to be an extrapolated Hillman /"soft" TRT,further tempered by experience.
    Perhaps in doing so I will only end up with a QAA MH with pup that should have an FC AFC, but only time will.

    Now if you care to,YOU answer my question....Glen ,you can also take a shot at if you like

    John
    Last edited by john fallon; 12-27-2011 at 08:39 AM.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    So first thing Hillman says is there are 3 things you want your pup to do: 1. chase something, 2.walk on a line and he does not mean heeling perfectly 3. teach him to sit. As I said he wants to pup to develop desire. Hillman stresses patience, kindness and understanding. There is plenty of obedience in each session. Usually he did these sessions with the pup in the morning when the pup was ready to go and only once a day. He says it is important the pup learns to become a family member rest of the day. The sessions are not stressful to the dog. Stresses you should be persistent with the command "sit". There were 28 days of training as I remember. The pup is taught sit, and while the pup is sitting and as the pup progresses you start to walk around the pup (maintaining sit) and walk further away from the pup and he becomes more steady. I practiced this with my pup and it works well, but you have to be persistent and consistent. Alot of praise goes with each session. He introduces pup to water, water marks, heeling both sides, practice sit with a bumper, introduced the pup to a clipped wing, and teaches you his term traffic cop where he keeps the pup from retrieving then gives the okay to retrieve, starts on Day 10 "hold" , does baby doubles, Day 21 Force Fetch with E collar on low (Ecollar has been on well before this), uses a bird boy to throw and shoot. I used the traffic cop but learned this from Voigt's DVD where he teaches stand alones while you go out and throw. Hillman comes back into his dog, praises him for a good job and then go back out (trafic cop) and sends him. Whole idea to teach steadiness. Works well!
    Excellent DVD and I am not going to tell you much more, but it is worthwhile viewing. And this is my translation of what I viewed. Like I said I am going to get the DVD to add to my library. Praise is a big part of the teaching! Good luck
    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Mary Lynn!

    That was an excellent synopsis!!!

    DVD is worth every penny.

    I think it teaches "a way of life" ,,and the dog doesnt even know its learning.
    Its an excellent DVD
    What I liked is it is actual 28 days of training. There are no staged set-ups, remakes or edits. Its what happened THAT DAY.

    There is also no boring lecture time. Its all watchin a puppy progress(very well i might add) in a 28 day time period.


    Gooser
    Quote Originally Posted by TroyFeeken View Post
    One of the largest values I was able to take away from the video was purely what he doesn't talk about. The use of non verbal cues and body language. Reading your dog is also brought up every time a discussion starts and without the subtle hints and visual referencences in this video it would have taken me much longer to understand what that means.
    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    What I took from it ,, was how Steadyness was incorporated very early into the dogs daily routine, and how eagerly the dog accepted the requirement.
    Dint seem to slow him down,,make a "pig" out of him,, the dog just accepted the requirement as a way of life.
    Hillman did it so passivly and in a matter of fact,NON threatening way ,, stressing a Happy wonderful day for the PUPPY!!
    Its a different way of thinking compared to other training opinions.

    Many start Steadyness requirements ,,much later in their schedule.

    Gooser
    Quote Originally Posted by ctretriever View Post
    Gooser I totally agree with what you posted! My pup is a few weeks in and sits and waits to be released! It is a beautiful thing! I remember reading Ted's post several years ago about sit means sit....does it really? and this has prepared my pup for that type of learning! My 4 month old Pirate girl was the star of our training group today.......everyone was amazed about how well she is doing as we threw two ducks for her at about 75-100 yards and she just pinned them!!!!

    Proud papa regards!!!!

    Chris
    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Why change the training protocol. don't you think that further training could continue in the same vein?

    John
    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    The Hillman training protocol to the point that it has been shown thus far, does not seem to me to be strictly intended to be used as a precursor for a conventional Carr based " yard" or "transition" program.....

    It depicts a kinder and gentler approach to training and we in the games would be well served with another video by Bill showing the balance of the yard, the swim by and transition.

    john
    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Mike, what we seem to have here is a "failure to communicate"

    When the words
    No...........................Not the end ......................It's just the beginning
    Flashed across the screen at the end of the Hillman puppy video...
    I did not say to myself. "Oh Good, I can now revert to a Carr based program for the balance of my dogs training".

    What I did say was "I wish Bill would do a sequel"

    john
    These are some great observations!!

    The Hillmann Method can continue to be applied along with the Lardy training chart to further your retriever's training. It is not particularly WHAT drills you do, but HOW you teach them!

    The whole intent of his initial video was to show that there is a kinder and gentler approach to training retrievers. He calls it the 'soft collar' approach. It's an approach more in tune to each individual dog.

    The traditional Carr method of training using the NEW electric collar with ONLY ONE level of intensity was in its day leaps ahead of old methods such as shotguns and sticks.

    With the new levels of intensity in today's electric collars, over 15 levels of intensity in which to choose, I would NOT personally START on a level 4! If I did, the past 10 dogs I've trained would have some serious attitude problems!

    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    We are winging it...... With my new puppy I am superimposing the Hillman stuff over a lower intensity version(2's, 3's, with little or no 4's) of the TRT material and tempering it with 50 years of experience.

    john
    Like John says, you can use the Hillmann method superimposed over other programs and use low level or 'soft collar' reinforcements only after the dog has been TAUGHT what is expected.

    Watch the puppy video for clues on his teaching methods.
    • Eye Contact
    • Body Movements
    • Touching
    • Praise
    • Soft Collar Reinforcement

    All of these tools can be used through out your dogs life to learn. He wants you to key in on the fact that animals communicate more through body language (animal) than verbal language (human). Hopefully we can look for more videos from Bill soon!

    It's not a training method but a way of life.......
    Last edited by TBell; 12-27-2011 at 08:44 AM. Reason: grammar

  3. #63
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    John

    I think I did answere your question.
    Now that I understand what you think the change is ,mebe I can try a intelligent answere.(hard for gooser)

    Like I said, I think it prepares a puppy for FORMAL obediance and field work training and (very well too.)

    My own perpective is (my opinion) , there will come a point in time when a dog will need to learn about force, and how to deal with it. I dont want to turn this into another one a those silly FF debates,, but eventually if you are following what you call a Carr based program,, a dog will need to learn about Force.

    I dont think that there is ANY change from Carr based programs to Hillmans PUPPY DVD

    I dont think Lardy,, Gram,,Dobbs whoever,,, have an intent to be 'UNKIND or HARSH to a puppy. They slowly bring a puppy along with socialization parameters, obedience , ect.

    I think what the Hillman DVD shows is someones way of COMBINING all this into each daily routine,, so the dog learns commands like "sit",, walking on a leash,, Hold,, steadyness,, without it even knowing it. He starts the dog out presenting to the puppy, what his world is,, and what is to be expected of him,, and like most other programs,, makes it Fun with no harsh corrections! They are PUPPIES!!!!. He develops a good positive attitude for training.

    If you wanted to say, you wish Hillman had a video describing transition work,, advanced field work,, DeCheating, DeBolting,, Pile work,, T and double T ,, Water force,,, Swim by ect,,, well,, I guess you shoulda said that. If you did,, and I miss understood you,, then I appologise.

    I think Lardy , Gram and many other Pros would be impressed if Clients took the time to prepare a Puppy following Hillmans DVD. I believe the Pup would blend well to any program the client chooses to follow after that 28 DAY TIME PERIOD!!!!

    Seriosly!!!! Think about it. If that puppy in Hiimans DVD is 10 weeks old,,,,, and he progresses as described for the next 28 days,, How old is the Pup at that point in time???? Just a Bit over 3 months????? The Pros I know dont want the dog till he is between 4 and 6 months!!! They are gonna want to see if a puppy can sit,, walk on lead,, Here, ride in a truck, not freek at the sight of other dogs... They wont even start that 4 month old puppt they just got in,, on a harsh ,, unkind training regieme.. At least not anyone I'm sending a dog to!!
    Hillmans DVD is for BABIES!!!!!!!! Its a PREPERATION FOR PUPPIES!!!!!!


    If you personally want a program that doesnt include Force,, so be it,, you can find them,, or creat yer own if ya want,,, and that Hillman puppy will be fine follwing one.
    I also believe that same Hillman puppy will do quite well follwing Lardy.

    Again!!! This is GOOSER Take it for what its worth. Its just my opinion based on my observations from watching the DVD. I plan on using it with my new puppy.


    Gooser
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 12-27-2011 at 10:27 AM.
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  4. #64
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    One more thing!

    Mebe I have Miss understood Lardy,, but I believe He stress "Fairness" all throughout his program!!!

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  5. #65
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    John

    I think I did answere your question.
    Now that I understand what you think the change is ,mebe I can try a intelligent answere.(hard for gooser)

    Like I said, I think it prepares a puppy for FORMAL obediance and field work training and (very well too.)

    My own perpective is (my opinion) , there will come a point in time when a dog will need to learn about force, and how to deal with it. I dont want to turn this into another one a those silly FF debates,, but eventually if you are following what you call a Carr based program,, a dog will need to learn about Force.

    I dont think that there is ANY change from Carr based programs to Hillmans PUPPY DVD

    I dont think Lardy,, Gram,,Dobbs whoever,,, have an intent to be 'UNKIND or HARSH to a puppy. They slowly bring a puppy along with socialization parameters, obedience , ect.

    I think what the Hillman DVD shows is someones way of COMBINING all this into each daily routine,, so the dog learns commands like "sit",, walking on a leash,, Hold,, steadyness,, without it even knowing it. He starts the dog out presenting to the puppy, what his world is,, and what is to be expected of him,, and like most other programs,, makes it Fun with no harsh corrections! They are PUPPIES!!!!. He develops a good positive attitude for training.

    If you wanted to say, you wish Hillman had a video describing transition work,, advanced field work,, DeCheating, DeBolting,, Pile work,, T and double T ,, Water force,,, Swim by ect,,, well,, I guess you shoulda said that. If you did,, and I miss understood you,, then I appologise.

    I think Lardy , Gram and many other Pros would be impressed if Clients took the time to prepare a Puppy following Hillmans DVD. I believe the Pup would blend well to any program the client chooses to follow after that 28 DAT TIME PERIOD!!!!

    Seriosly!!!! Think about it. If that puppy in Hiimans DVD is 10 weeks old,,,,, and he progresses as described for the next 28 days,, How old is the Pup at that point in time???? Just a Bit over 3 months????? The Pros I know dont want the dog till he is between 4 and 6 months!!! They are gonna want to see if a puppy can sit,, walk on lead,, Here, ride in a truck, not freek at the sight of other dogs... They wont even start that 4 month old puppt they just got in,, on a harsh ,, unkind training regieme.. At least not anyone I'm sending a dog to!!
    Hillmans DVD is for BABIES!!!!!!!! Its a PREPERATION FOR PUPPIES!!!!!!


    If you personally want a program that doesnt include Force,, so be it,, you can find them,, or creat yer own if ya want,,, and that Hillman puppy will be fine follwing one.
    I also believe that same Hillman puppy will do quite well follwing Lardy.

    Again!!! This is GOOSER Take it for what its worth. Its just my opinion based on my observations from watching the DVD. I plan on using it with my new puppy.


    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #66
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    Gooser,

    Here's a prediction:

    You're about to hop on your most enjoyable retriever journey yet. You're about to feel like the world has opened up brand new horizons for you and your new pup.

    This next part is kind of like a spin on the "Men's Warehouse" TV commercials:

    You're gonna love the way your new dog performs.

    That's my prediction.

    Here's to a happy, confident, obedient Phase 3 retriever for the Gooser...

    Oh, and you gotta be careful feeding that other critter. Kinda like the pa in Ted's annual Xmas story. You feed too much to that other cat, and he'll get cantankerous.

    Chris

  7. #67
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Thanks Chris!!

    2 more weeks!!

    I am experiencing 72 hr days!!!

    Gooser


    John

    If you go back and review the Hilman DVD, and listen to the last sentence in the INTRODUCTION,, you will hear Hilman himself say the DVD is for Puppy preperation,, and will be a great precurser for what ever trainer, or program the pup will experience. (I paraphased)

    Again,, DVD isnt meant to be a program,, is all about babies!!
    Dont make it more than it is!

    Gooser

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  8. #68
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    John

    I think I did answere your question.
    Now that I understand what you think the change is ,mebe I can try a intelligent answere.(hard for gooser)

    Like I said, I think it prepares a puppy for FORMAL obediance and field work training and (very well too.)

    My own perpective is (my opinion) , there will come a point in time when a dog will need to learn about force, and how to deal with it. I dont want to turn this into another one a those silly FF debates,, but eventually if you are following what you call a Carr based program,, a dog will need to learn about Force.

    I dont think that there is ANY change from Carr based programs to Hillmans PUPPY DVD

    I dont think Lardy,, Gram,,Dobbs whoever,,, have an intent to be 'UNKIND or HARSH to a puppy. They slowly bring a puppy along with socialization parameters, obedience , ect.

    I think what the Hillman DVD shows is someones way of COMBINING all this into each daily routine,, so the dog learns commands like "sit",, walking on a leash,, Hold,, steadyness,, without it even knowing it. He starts the dog out presenting to the puppy, what his world is,, and what is to be expected of him,, and like most other programs,, makes it Fun with no harsh corrections! They are PUPPIES!!!!. He develops a good positive attitude for training.

    If you wanted to say, you wish Hillman had a video describing transition work,, advanced field work,, DeCheating, DeBolting,, Pile work,, T and double T ,, Water force,,, Swim by ect,,, well,, I guess you shoulda said that. If you did,, and I miss understood you,, then I appologise.

    I think Lardy , Gram and many other Pros would be impressed if Clients took the time to prepare a Puppy following Hillmans DVD. I believe the Pup would blend well to any program the client chooses to follow after that 28 DAT TIME PERIOD!!!!

    Seriosly!!!! Think about it. If that puppy in Hiimans DVD is 10 weeks old,,,,, and he progresses as described for the next 28 days,, How old is the Pup at that point in time???? Just a Bit over 3 months????? The Pros I know dont want the dog till he is between 4 and 6 months!!! They are gonna want to see if a puppy can sit,, walk on lead,, Here, ride in a truck, not freek at the sight of other dogs... They wont even start that 4 month old puppt they just got in,, on a harsh ,, unkind training regieme.. At least not anyone I'm sending a dog to!!
    Hillmans DVD is for BABIES!!!!!!!! Its a PREPERATION FOR PUPPIES!!!!!!


    If you personally want a program that doesnt include Force,, so be it,, you can find them,, or creat yer own if ya want,,, and that Hillman puppy will be fine follwing one.
    I also believe that same Hillman puppy will do quite well follwing Lardy.

    Again!!! This is GOOSER Take it for what its worth. Its just my opinion based on my observations from watching the DVD. I plan on using it with my new puppy.


    Gooser
    Gooser that is a very important point you bring home-age of the pup when you start and when you are finished Hillman's DVD. Most should start at 8 weeks-10 weeks. I started Chief a little later as we had been following info from Lori Jolly's book (which is good). By the end of the 28 days of Hillman's DVD, he still was not that old (6.5 months)! Now I am making sure he has his steadiness is down pat! In January, he will be ff and have more cc. Right now, he is having loads of fun and yet he is still so eager, soaking the game up like a sponge. The DVD is a valuable tool IMHO and don't just stop running over the techniques you learned. At least your pup has been introduced to a fair approach to retrieving, you will always use the info, grow from that 28 day point and the techniques will develop better in different ways but they will be very useful to you!!IMHO
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  9. #69
    Senior Member rednek's Avatar
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    It would appear people are attempting to "rush" the "Hillman" approach,the training sessions in the video were not everyday,it's 28 days of training spread out over 9-10 weeks,I think there was a discussion about this on another thread,the other days between training were just walks,socialization and play.

  10. #70
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    The more you go back and watch that DVD it ibecomes absolutly amazing what that young dog accomplishes in A 28 DAY TIME PERIOD!!

    Its just a great DVD for new Puppy owners

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

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