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Thread: What if I get an MH on my dog in two AKC venues?

  1. #51
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    You have your work cut out for you.
    Fellow spinoniophile, have to believe Mr. Barnes guilty of tongue in chaw humour. Though with Airedales running "spaniel" tests the last few years (albeit to try and put some interest in a flagging program), anything's possible with AKC.

    MG

  2. #52
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxFig View Post
    I was thinking "test dog" and an honorary ribbon for doing a good job. LOL
    Since the AKC has gotten so money hungry and has instituted all these testing programs that reward any dog with a pulse, I doubt you'd have much trouble getting them to approve GSDs to run retriever hunt tests.
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  3. #53
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    With AKC opening up Retriever Hunting Tests to more breeds, will there be an opportunity for retrievers to run Spaniel/Flushing HT's in the future??

    A great many ... maybe most ... retrievers are used as upland flushing dogs exclusively, as are used as waterfowlers exclusively

    Prolly a dumb question I guess ... it WOULD mean more revenue for the AKC, wouldn't it.

    JS
    About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers.

    The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.

    Many Spaniel enthusiasts however, have expressed concerns that the influence of retriever handlers would tend to encourage just the sort of ideology that’s been expressed in this thread, i.e. that the use of nose is to be subdued in favor of the use of eyes.

    It is abhorrent to most spaniel aficionados to discourage the dog from using his most effective attribute.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  4. #54
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers.

    The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.

    Many Spaniel enthusiasts however, have expressed concerns that the influence of retriever handlers would tend to encourage just the sort of ideology that’s been expressed in this thread, i.e. that the use of nose is to be subdued in favor of the use of eyes.

    It is abhorrent to most spaniel aficionados to discourage the dog from using his most effective attribute.
    Thanks for the insight, Dave.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  5. #55
    Senior Member TxFig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Fellow spinoniophile, have to believe Mr. Barnes guilty of tongue in chaw humour. Though with Airedales running "spaniel" tests the last few years (albeit to try and put some interest in a flagging program), anything's possible with AKC.

    Mostly, yes - it was tongue in cheek.


    But... I have LONG believed that all events should be open to ALL breeds. I would never suggest that an event should ever be changed to suit a different breed - but if xyzzy breed can do the work required for 12345 event, then by all means, they should be awarded the opportunity to do so.


    Now with that said, I don't care enough to actually do the volumes of work that would be required to push a rule change. My level of interest is best described as "mild amusement".
    --
    Chris Barnes

  6. #56
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimsmith View Post
    Angie I love my little girl, she is 1 of the 5 MHR. I would love to get a MH flushing title but we have very few test in our area. I always believed its easier to start out training for retriever work first then train for upland after they get the retriever titles.

    I don’t disagree that upland training can conflict w/ non-slip retriever work, but it works the other way too. If you don't get a pup hunting early, learning how his nose works & how scent travels, he will not achieve his maximum potential as an upland dog. That being said, if your goal is only to acquire MH titles in both venues, I agree w/ doing the retriever training first. Not all dogs have the innate potential to earn a Master retrieving title while most Boykins at least, probably do have enough natural ability to pass a Master Spaniel test. Therefore, even if his upland hunting ability is retarded to some degree by a late start & early control training, he can probably still get the ribbon.

    Personally, I feel like there is such a thing as "good enough" for a hunting retriever. Even if I need a few more whistles than I'd like, I can live w/ it as long as he can deliver all the birds I kill. On the other hand, I don't think you can ever have a good enough upland dog. Every dog will miss some birds. Pheasants make a living outsmarting coyotes & hawks every day of their lives. I want to give my dog every opportunity to cultivate his innate abilities to find them. It just depends on your priorities.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dog’ nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers.

    The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.

    Many Spaniel enthusiasts however, have expressed concerns that the influence of retriever handlers would tend to encourage just the sort of ideology that’s been expressed in this thread, i.e. that the use of nose is to be subdued in favor of the use of eyes.

    It is abhorrent to most spaniel aficionados to discourage the dog from using his most effective attribute.
    Spaniel aficionados don't like force fetch either and their land blinds suck at best. I can only imagine the water blinds?? I've seen the water marks,,, *cough*.

    Also they won't or can't mark past 40 yards. In their own venue they rock... If they ramp up to the retriever venue they will labor and have a long way to go. I'm not saying they can't do it. They can but it will be an uphill battle.

    Angie

  8. #58
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Flint View Post
    About a year & a half ago I attended a Spaniel Hunt test Judges Seminar where the field rep disclosed that they were working on opening up the Spaniel hunt tests to retrievers.
    Dave, remember who was working on the AKC to open the tests up to retrievers? - the flattie and especially the IWS folks as I recall.

    The Spaniel hunt test program struggles to attract enough participants in many parts of the country for a variety of reasons so I was in favor of this move not just in order to help the clubs putting on these events make money but because I thought that the retriever owners would bring some much needed “polish” to the water blind test which is laughable as it’s currently judged.
    Umm, those two breeds would certainly make it different than the "operatic" back-back-back-back-back continuous refrain when spaniel testers are trying to get their dog across a pond.

    Funniest moment for me was when my dog was sent on a water blind and it had been planted directly in front of a goose nest on an island - and the gander came out to guard as the dog approached shore. The AKC rep (who had dropped by the test for a second or two in lieu of his real destination, a nearby retriever FT [and who shall remain nameless, bless his good ol' boy heart]) all but burnt rubber to get to the judges and demand they scrap the test. Hell, they didn't know what scrap meant - and besides, as I told Mr. X, the rep, mine was the only dog in the test to make it to last series. Not to mention she knew pretty well what to do with geese -



    - and how to run a retriever blind without the operatic trilling ("back-back-back-back-back" for 45 yards - or about three minutes if swimming if the dog ballet'd (spin-spin-spin) its way to the blind).

    Quote Originally Posted by Angie B View Post
    Spaniel aficionados don't like force fetch either and their land blinds suck at best. I can only imagine the water blinds?? I've seen the water marks,,, *cough*.
    Yes, and at the same test as above, one of the participants (who I believe also was judging the next day), moaned "If they (AKC) put any more water in our tests, they might as well be telling us to run retrievers instead of spaniels." All for a single marked retrieve at every level and for a water blind only at master.

    By the way, Angie, Montler's was a great place to run a test - think it was the only MH I ever failed when three cockbirds got up at once well behind the guns (and dog of course) and they blasted away anyhow without dropping any of them, which blew my poor little "non-hunting bred" (in this country) spaniel's mind. But the scenery (and the gracious hosting) were fantastic.

    MG

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie B View Post
    Spaniel aficionados don't like force fetch either and their land blinds suck at best. I can only imagine the water blinds?? I've seen the water marks,,, *cough*.

    Also they won't or can't mark past 40 yards. In their own venue they rock... If they ramp up to the retriever venue they will labor and have a long way to go. I'm not saying they can't do it. They can but it will be an uphill battle.

    Angie
    I run springer field trials and all my dogs are force fetched. They can also run decent land blinds. I only trained one of them to run water blinds that I ran in hunt tests. I know they would pass a retriever SH test. I will agree the water work at spaniel hunt tests is quite weak and painful to watch but I would bet some serious money that I could run a field bred springer and pass an MH retriever test faster than you could make an FC springer. There are are a pretty fair number of spaniel field trials in Texas, you would not have to travel far. I would even give you a puppy when I breed my female, you can have pick of the litter if the bet is substantial enough. If you don't like one of mine I will get you one out of any litter you can find. You seem to know alot about spaniels and their field trial gunning and what the dogs are capable of. I will bet you 10 grand. Youngest to accomplish their goal wins. Puppies can come from any litter in the country.

  10. #60
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    Am I reading this correctly? One MH pass vs an FC title? If so; ya think?!?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by jwdavis View Post
    I run springer field trials and all my dogs are force fetched. They can also run decent land blinds. I only trained one of them to run water blinds that I ran in hunt tests. I know they would pass a retriever SH test. I will agree the water work at spaniel hunt tests is quite weak and painful to watch but I would bet some serious money that I could run a field bred springer and pass an MH retriever test faster than you could make an FC springer. There are are a pretty fair number of spaniel field trials in Texas, you would not have to travel far. I would even give you a puppy when I breed my female, you can have pick of the litter if the bet is substantial enough. If you don't like one of mine I will get you one out of any litter you can find. You seem to know alot about spaniels and their field trial gunning and what the dogs are capable of. I will bet you 10 grand. Youngest to accomplish their goal wins. Puppies can come from any litter in the country.
    We are only as good as those that surround us.

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