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Thread: Our economic future

  1. #11
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    Your right Bon, one world currency will never happen, and this just in, our founding fathers stopped by yesterday to check on things and said we're doing a great job!

  2. #12
    Senior Member Uncle Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I believe that our nation's economic problems are immensely deeper than either political party is prepared to discuss or address.

    Globalization is inevitable and irreversible. However, one immediate consequence of globalization is that capital is more mobile than labor. As a consequence, capital naturally migrates to those parts of the world the highest labor productivity at the lowest relative cost.

    Our standard of living and our fundamental lifestyle have always been predicated on the fact that our workforce was the most productive in the world because of higher levels of education, an economic and political structure that made it relatively easier to implement more efficient production methods by denying protection for entrenched power, and a broad distribution of income and wealth that helped ensure that a high percentage of gross product would immediately re-enter the economy through consumption.

    Over the last 40 years we have fallen dramatically behind the rest of the world on all fronts.

    An educational system that previously helped ensure that a higher and higher percentage of the population would achieve higher levels of education (and productivity) has turned into one where the best educational resources are reserved for a smaller and smaller percentage of the population while the levels of educational attainment for the majority decline annually. This is evidenced by our decline from a clear educational leader in the world to a nation that ranks low among the industrial economies and is falling relative even to the world's developing economies.

    While the return on capital has skyrocketed with the easy mobility of capital, the return on labor has plummeted. Each year a larger percentage of our wealth is held by a smaller percentage of the population and the consumer/worker has been left only with debt. This may actually be an inevitable step as costs of labor adjust globally to reflect changes in relative productivity. However, the immediate consequence is that there is simply no more consumer engine to fuel the American economy other than sales to consumers in other parts of the world. Efficiency demands that the shift in point of sale be mirrored by shifts in the location of production resources -- that is, the movement of jobs to other parts of the world -- isolating our own workforce even more.

    These seismic shifts are creating a variety of conflicting political pressures. Class warfare, which found no takers in this country when wealth was broadly distributed and all were benefiting from growth, is now finding a lot of support. The overwhelming majority of the population is losing the war to stay ahead of the bill collectors despite working longer and longer hours each year. The entrenched winners in the economy see this and are fighting harder to preserve their status as winners with increases in personal income and wealth that dwarf anything seen in the first 200 years of our nation's existence. The unfortunate reality is that the real class warfare in this country has been initiated from the top down, and the top is winning as measured by the increasing concentration of wealth.

    How does a small, powerful elite preserve power in a democracy? A variety of ways. It supports cultural and religious institutions that advocate for authority. It uses virtually unlimited money to manipulate legislative and legal action. It gains control of the courts. It encourages fear. All of these activities are things we see every day.

    There are no "solutions" for many of our economic woes. The global realignment of incomes will continue. However, the gross concentration of wealth that we see happening now is not inevitable and will be addressed by nations throughout the world. The only question is whether the process happens peacefully or not.

    [Just thought I would throw a little meat on the fire... ]

    That's not "meat on the fire"...that's whining in an erudite fashion. For all your 'wordsmithing', it still comes out as another Democrat/socialist/atheist espousing his usual fodder for his liberal followers...or some of his liberal followers, the ones that don't have most of this sail over their heads, but lap it up because the almighty Yardley has again shown us the way.

    Your simplistic reasoning about how we are losing our productivity is easily explained by the Atlas Shrugged story. (BTW, the only thing in common between you and Ayn Rand is your atheism, although her's was for strictly objectivism purposes)

    As to our sad education system, much can be laid at the feet of that equally pathetic president that started the NEA, and the equally pathetic program of NCLB that Bush was hounded into producing (and I still fault him for being as weak-kneed as his father was in the tax arena) by that other equally pathetic Democrat socialist, Teddy K. So while you chastise the education system of this nation, you never point out the real reason for it's lousy showing that has occurred ever since that august body of "professionals" were allowed to become unionistas and tenured, which any modicum of intelligence would see that's a recipe for mediocrity at best, and New York rubber rooms at it's worst.

    As to your view that the class warfare is being initiated from the top down is as ludicrous as anything you've uttered, but given your political proclivities, it's no doubt that would be the Democrat explanation to their faults of constantly expecting cradle to grave government hand-outs. If you believe the OWS crowd isn't leading the SFN group by exploiting the class envy spouted constantly by the Democrat's messiah, you have fallen on the sword once too often.

    Comes now that final statement that is, for an Obama supporter, sacrilegious! It's a definite profanation aimed at the messiah and his optimism towards four more years of "hope and change". NO SOLUTIONS? How can this be? Hellsbells all we need to do is tax the rich and producers into poverty and in yours and the Democrats eyes, all will be solved. (BTW, FWIW, even if ALL U.S. citizens were taxed 100% of their income, it would still not be enough to BALANCE the Federal Budget! You won't see that published in the Democratically infested MSM. And you noticed I mentioned this is just to BALANCE our budget...AND NOTHING IS BEING DONE TO REDUCE THE DEBT)

    You can bet your leader with his Chicago background and community leadership, training, and education, will be spewing that philosophical rhetoric (all BUT the truthful info I added in parenthesis) during his SOTU, and I use that acronym loosely, because we all know it will be just another campaign speech tonight.

    There would be no "gross concentration of wealth" had the Jesse Jackson's, and Al Sharpton's of the world, along with all the other Democrats that have only 'used' the have-nots for their political gain. They'd rather they not be educated and responsible for their livelihood, but instead, keeping them dumb downed and sucking on the government teat, so they would continue to keep their Democrat politicians in power so the hand-outs would continue.

    And once again, you have dumfounded me with that final line. After watching the SFN crowds in those European countries rioting because their governments are cutting their freebies because the nation is broke and no other country is willing to support their spendtrift ways, you have the audacity to 'guess' as to "whether the process happens peacefully or not"? Let me answer that for you...NOT!!!

    In fact, be prepared, especially if we have 4 more years of a Democrat oligarchy in the White House, you can expect many more years of Democrat rule, because the SFNs, have-not, and OWS fools will have won, and will have the majority to vote in more big government to keep their SFN lifestyle working. But it won't be enough, because they will run out of other peoples money, and anarchy will follow.

    Keep your powder dry, Yardley. You exhibit way too much wealth and can expect some of those 'class envy' folks, be they former wealthy and now stripped of their riches by your "share and be fair" socialists, or the more typical hoodlems, and druggies looking for easy rip-offs to B&E and ransack you home. But then, like most Dems, you can always blame Bush.

    UB
    Last edited by Uncle Bill; 01-24-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Finally, the economists who Republicans based their arguments for "austerity now" and that government stimulus could never stimulate anything are admitting that they were, well, they were wrong...

    And Krugman was right???

    The whole article is here: http://www.economist.com/comment/1238350

    I realize that Cary will poo poo the whole article because it appeared in the dreaded liberal (really?) Economist.

    Item 1: Over the past month, Paul Krugman, Brad DeLong, and Simon Wren-Lewis engaged in an interminable duel with Tyler Cowen, Scott Sumner, sort-of Karl Smith (occupying as usual an esoteric position not easily placed on the ideological grid), and probably some other people I'm forgetting—over an old argument by John Cochrane claiming that the multiplier effect of government stimulus spending probably ought to be zero. The argument by Mr Cochrane was a critical document in the stimulus debate, because it was an articulation in more-or-less public discourse by a well-respected economist of a mechanism through which increased government spending could fail to raise GDP or increase employment at all. Essentially every working practical economist and forecaster believed that the stimulus, like any other government spending, would raise aggregate demand, GDP, and employment. Republican politicians were arguing that it would not, and Mr Cochrane backed them up.

    Two weeks ago, Mr Cochrane responded to the argument in a fashion that suggested that either he has changed his mind, or he never thought what the expansionary-austerity people claimed he did in the first place.

    Let's be clear what the "fiscal stimulus" argument is and is not about.It is not about the proposition that governments should run deficits in recessions. They should, for simple tax-smoothing, consumption-smoothing, and social-insurance reasons, just as governments should finance wars with debt. That doesn't justify all deficits—one can still argue that our government used the recession to radically increase permanent spending. But disliking "stimulus" is not the same thing as calling for an annually balanced budget.Nor is it about debt financing of "infrastructure" or other genuine investments. If the project is valuable, do it. And recessions, with low interest rates and available workers, are good times to do it... Stimulus [is] still an economically interesting proposition, and there is a great deal of uncertainty about whether, when, and how well it might work.
    And...

    Item 2: Niall Ferguson has spent the last three years arguing, contra Paul Krugman, that America is courting disaster by allowing deficits to balloon its national debt to such high levels, and will have to reign in spending or face a crippling rise in interest rates. Last week, in an interview with Henry Blodget, he admitted defeat.

    BLODGET: That is a shockingly optimistic view of the United States from you. Are you conceding to Paul Krugman that over the near-term we shouldn't worry so much?

    FERGUSON: I think the issue here got a little confused, because Krugman wanted to portray me as a proponent of instant austerity, which I never was. My argument was that over ten years you have to have some credible plan to get back to fiscal balance because at some point you lose your credibility because on the present path, Congressional Budget Office figures make it clear, with every year the share of Federal tax revenues going to interest payments rises, there is a point after which it's no longer credible. But I didn't think that point was going to be this year or next year. I think the trend of nominal rates in the crisis has been the trend that he forecasted. And you know, I have to concede that.



    And an interesting point about spending on clean energy.

    On the other hand, the administration had to drop an idea that almost certainly would have made sense—building a national electric smart grid—because the jurisdictional and red-tape problems made it impossible to implement fast enough. Instead the administration decided to invest in clean energy; but those investments placed their bets too heavily on individual companies, some of which then went bankrupt. In an excerpt from the book on the electric car and battery industry jump-started by stimulus funding, Mr Grabell says the jury is still out: without a rapid pickup in demand for Leafs and Volts (which in turn depends on a big increase in electric charging stations), America's electric-car industry will probably fail to hit critical mass, and it'll wind up relocating to South Korea or China like every other manufacturing industry has.

    Number one, I think it is a huge failure of policy that billions didn't get invested into our electrical grid, but I'm an electric power guy, so I'm biased.

    But the part about electric car manufacturing going to Korea or China if it fails to hit critical mass here is spot on. That would be really cool to see the USA hand another critical manufacturing industry over to the Koreans and Chinese...
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  4. #14
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Finally, the economists who Republicans based their arguments for "austerity now" and that government stimulus could never stimulate anything are admitting that they were, well, they were wrong...

    And Krugman was right???

    The whole article is here: http://www.economist.com/comment/1238350

    I realize that Cary will poo poo the whole article because it appeared in the dreaded liberal (really?) Economist.



    And...






    And an interesting point about spending on clean energy.




    Number one, I think it is a huge failure of policy that billions didn't get invested into our electrical grid, but I'm an electric power guy, so I'm biased.

    But the part about electric car manufacturing going to Korea or China if it fails to hit critical mass here is spot on. That would be really cool to see the USA hand another critical manufacturing industry over to the Koreans and Chinese...
    Hey Buzz, did you ever read my paper on using ultra sonic detection equipment for tracking corona discharge or dielectric breakdown in enclosed hi-voltage switchgear??
    It also envolved using a parabolic for long distance corona tracking.

    Level I thermographer regards,


    RK
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Hey Buzz, did you ever read my paper on using ultra sonic detection equipment for tracking corona discharge or dielectric breakdown in enclosed hi-voltage switchgear??
    It also envolved using a parabolic for long distance corona tracking.

    Level I thermographer regards,


    RK
    No, but I would like to.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Finally, the economists who Republicans based their arguments for "austerity now" and that government stimulus could never stimulate anything are admitting that they were, well, they were wrong...

    And Krugman was right???

    The whole article is here: http://www.economist.com/comment/1238350

    I realize that Cary will poo poo the whole article because it appeared in the dreaded liberal (really?) Economist.



    And...






    And an interesting point about spending on clean energy.




    Number one, I think it is a huge failure of policy that billions didn't get invested into our electrical grid, but I'm an electric power guy, so I'm biased.

    But the part about electric car manufacturing going to Korea or China if it fails to hit critical mass here is spot on. That would be really cool to see the USA hand another critical manufacturing industry over to the Koreans and Chinese...
    With the vast abundence of natural gas, I just don't see consumers buying electric cars.

    Rather than the government trying to pick the technology, market forces would do a much better job of determining success or failure of what is needed. Afterall, the governments track record of picking losers is obvious.

    In regards to Krugman and his peeps, all they really offer is kicking the problems down the road as opposed to fixing the problems at the core. In my book, our number one core problem is government's inability to be honest with the American people. We will not lose our Freedoms and Liberty to Islamic terrorist but to unions and entitlements! Unions have run mfg offshore and would make our entire nation a "rust belt" if they could.
    Last edited by Franco; 02-05-2012 at 01:26 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    With the vast abundence of natural gas, I just don't see consumers buying electric cars.

    Rather than the government trying to pick the technology, market forces would do a much better job of determining success or failure of what is needed. Afterall, the governments track record of picking losers is obvious.

    In regards to Krugman and his peeps, all they really offer is kicking the problems down the road as opposed to fixing the problems at the core. In my book, our number one core problem is government's inability to be honest with the American people. We will not lose our Freedoms and Liberty to Islamic terrorist but to unions and entitlements! Unions have run mfg offshore and would make our entire nation a "rust belt" if they could.
    Unions have not run our business offshore. Unions coined the phrase buy union thus meaning buy american. Freetrade has done more to costing american jobs than anything.

    Clint Eastwood did a commercial for Chrysler last night that was awesome.

    See if the vultures like Bain Capital would have won the trade with GM and Cyrsler. We would have lost auto manufacturing as they sold off the pieces, so the union's negotiations kept those companies in tack and those jobs here. The unions have the most to lose because their job is to keep their members working, so when the politicians give the power to the corporations, labor looses

  8. #18
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    Sambo, if you truly believe that union wages and luxury benefits & union thuggery have had nothing to do with labor costs in the US car industry, there is no hope for reasoning with you.

    I agree that the free trade agreements have done more to help our training partners than the US, but that does not vindicate the practice of the UAW of keeping workers paid for sitting in a room doing nothing as part of their union contracts.

    Another example of union idiocy. Had a client working for a microchip mfr. When layoffs were needed most departments moved workers to other departments. Due to union contract, his department was not permitted to do that. So, for a full year, he (and his co-workers) were required to come to work each day (actually night shift) and DO NOTHING ... but union rules did not allow them to become unemployed. Occasionally someone actually came around to see if they had actually showed up. As long as they punched in and punched out, that was the proof that they had been there ... doing nothing. Meanwhile these workers also continued to receive company health insurance and pension accruals.

    Maybe unions are still viable for some purposes ... although govt agencies like OSHA have stepped in to do some of the protective duties originally union concerns (worker safety). Unions, like politicians, succumbed to corruption, giving birth to yet more govt controls.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Sambo, if you truly believe that union wages and luxury benefits & union thuggery have had nothing to do with labor costs in the US car industry, there is no hope for reasoning with you.

    I agree that the free trade agreements have done more to help our training partners than the US, but that does not vindicate the practice of the UAW of keeping workers paid for sitting in a room doing nothing as part of their union contracts.

    Another example of union idiocy. Had a client working for a microchip mfr. When layoffs were needed most departments moved workers to other departments. Due to union contract, his department was not permitted to do that. So, for a full year, he (and his co-workers) were required to come to work each day (actually night shift) and DO NOTHING ... but union rules did not allow them to become unemployed. Occasionally someone actually came around to see if they had actually showed up. As long as they punched in and punched out, that was the proof that they had been there ... doing nothing. Meanwhile these workers also continued to receive company health insurance and pension accruals.

    Maybe unions are still viable for some purposes ... although govt agencies like OSHA have stepped in to do some of the protective duties originally union concerns (worker safety). Unions, like politicians, succumbed to corruption, giving birth to yet more govt controls.
    I'm not saying that unions and their leadership have not abused their power at times. As have the company their members work for, but all in all, the unions help protect their members jobs. See we can't count on government to help, because dollars from corporations bought and paid for the ablity to take these jobs overseas. This same free trade brought unfair competition, too. So I ask you, do you think the polices regarding trade and the tax enviornment did a lot for allowing these companies to move work overseas. If you do, then I suggest you realign yourself with who the unions are supporting.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Problem is the fact that we do not have Free Trade here is the USA. We may attempt to compete with other countries but because of all the regs and cost of labor, we have to compete with one arm tied behind our back and our legs severed at the knees!
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

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