How old was the dog when the rupture happened? Both knees?Originally Posted by fowl hunter
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
How old was the dog when the rupture happened? Both knees?
Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs
I know several dogs that have had it. Diff ages. One had both torn and repaired and hasn't had a problem for last couple of years since the dog has been at home and not with pro anymore but still gets run everyday.
I am glad you asked this. I am starting the process of looking at upcoming litters and wondered if that is a question that would be ok to ask. I have gone through 2 tplos on my dog,and not only is it expensive but it takes a chunk of time out of your training. It was interesting when my dog got his first tplo the surgeon commented that he would almost for sure blow the other side due to his conformation, and she was right almost 2 years to the day the second knee blew.I know that you can do all the clearances in the world and stilll have no guarantees with their health, but it sure would be nice to know that they are not genetically more likely to have problems.
I'm talking about breeding. Has your bitch had either repaired? How about the studs you're considering? In my experience and from my discussions with others who've been around a hell of alot longer than I have, young dogs tearing both = genetic, particularly when there are close relatives with CCL issues. Older dogs tearing one or both, I don't worry about it from a breeding aspect. The U of MN was doing genetic research on CCL ruptures and asking for blood samples (if one was close enough, they also wanted to do a physical exam). Their criteria was dogs that had both knees rupture by 2 y/o, or dogs that had no ruptures by 8 y/o. One of my first Labs, a bench/field blend, fit the first category, both repaired by 18 months and she had one sibling with the same, enough for me to spay her without breeding. My only other CCL tear was my then 8 y/o MH, repaired it, 18 months later she's not had an issue with the other knee yet, though she isn't in training anymore. Her youngest pups are just turned 2, the oldest would be 7, no issues reported in any of her offspring over the years. I've bred to field studs who have had one or both repaired when they were older, like 6-8. I've avoided studs, regardless of pedigree, titles, etc, because I know they and/or some offspring have had issues at what I feel personally is too young of an age to overlook. I know there are tons of arguments about the rigors of training, conformation, etc and many are legit, but I'm just not a big gambler, so I avoid what I can when I can.
Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs
I'd long heard whispers that the tears/ruptures are inherited from Lab people and considered them their dirty little secret. But in the past 10 years, cruciate tears and major injuries have been occurring in Chesapeakes, and in almost all instances if you do some digging, you find a parent, sibling, offspring or close relative of the affected dog has had a similar injury. And you do have to dig, because people will always claim their dog's TPLO was needed because of a catastrophic injury. The percentage of dogs that need a TPLO in the 2nd leg is much higher than 50 percent, it's more like 80 percent. And the second leg is NOT injured due to favoring it during recovery. If that was the case then all dogs that had a back leg amputated would need a TPLO in the remaining leg. No one I know has ever heard of an amputee needing one. These excuses that it was catastrophic and the other one went because of favoring the good leg during rehab are just that--excuses people make when they breed their unsound dogs.
Of course there's a chance some of these injuries are not a result of genetic unsoundness....but I will not take a chance on having that particular unsoundness in my breeding program, because IMO saddling a puppy buyer with $7,000 or more of surgery/extensive rehab is much more burdensome than, for example, mild dysplasia. And a year (for 2 rehabs) is a lot of time to lose from a dog's already short working career.
Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981
No my female has not had Any issues not has she torn her cruciates. One Very nice stud I am thinking about has had his repaired. How many surgeries to creek robber have?
Then you need to do your research, ask questions of stud owners and anyone else who might know the dog personally, without making a witch hunt out of it, and above all, be honest with your buyers.
Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs
Did labs in the 40's-70's have reported rates as high as today's?
I don't know about those dogs, but it has gotten much worse since the mid 90's IMHO. It's still pretty much of an unknown as far as the cause. Look at the other 2 grants. Immune issues and inflammatory issues are also being studied. I only remember hearing of cruciates on older dogs, and it usually meant retirement. The younger age and the frequency is definitely higher than it was in the 80's. This is in the first listed grant " The exact disease process behind spontaneous rupture of the canine cranial cruciate ligament (CrCL) is not known. Though much research has focused on the structure and function of the ligamentous core of the CrCL, little has been dedicated to the thin layer of cells (synoviocytes) that envelop the CrCL. Similarly, there is little information on the potential role that these cells may have in the degeneration and rupture of the CrCL. " Since so many of our dogs are bred from just a few studs, even though the exact cause is unknown, it has escalated dramatically but it also seems dogs are being run earlier now. If it is indeed an immune plus inflammatory process, maybe there is an insect vector as a cause.
Nancy P
"We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam
Just got back from Michigan State University and my Nala has what was diagnosed as less than a Class I tear. It reads as: Under sedation, .25 out of 4 cranial drawer movement. Both knees were given that score, but only her right knee has expressed momentary (20-30 seconds), intermittant lameness.
Dr. Grethen Flo did the exam and her take on labs and CCL tears has much to do with conformation, especially in show labs as their conformation is different than working dogs were the limbs are concerned and that their knee angles (etc) are much worse than working labs'.
I mentioned Gibson's work but she was not aware of it.
So, I guess I'm gonna wait on surgery until the tear(s) gets "unmanagable".
HR Surrey's Space Dog Nala
The best long range duck load is a well trained retriever - Nash Buckingham
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote