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Thread: Searched and took her to the Vet... heat cycle

  1. #21
    Senior Member JustinS's Avatar
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    This has been very helpful, I am sure proud to be in the company of all of you knowledgable people.
    Justin E Schneider

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    Senior Member JepDog's Avatar
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    It is my understanding that the slides only tell you if she's in heat, not when she ovulates. So you'd still need to do progesterone testing for accuracy. I start testing on day 8 for a baseline, then every other. I still do progesterone with natural breedings, some stud owners will only try a couple ties and you want them to count. Also, as Melanie said, you're better prepared.

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    Once it hits 5 does it start going up rapidly or does it just depend on the female

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    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    You breed 5 days after the LH surge......
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    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JepDog View Post
    It is my understanding that the slides only tell you if she's in heat, not when she ovulates. So you'd still need to do progesterone testing for accuracy. I start testing on day 8 for a baseline, then every other. I still do progesterone with natural breedings, some stud owners will only try a couple ties and you want them to count. Also, as Melanie said, you're better prepared.
    No, you can tell when they ovulate, it's just so many vets are off in their readings.

    Proestrus is the first stage of heat. The bitch shows a variable amount of vulvar swelling and vaginal discharge. The discharge is most characteristically bloody and serum-like (serosanguinous) but may range in color from milky to frankly bloody. Male dogs are attracted to the bitch but she will not stand for breeding, and often tucks her tail under tightly, sits down, or turns on the male dog. This stage lasts an average of 9 days with a range from 0 to 17 days.


    Vaginal cytology specimens contain a population of epithelial cells that undergo a gradual transition from a predominance of non-cornified cells to complete cornification. Red blood cells (RBCs), white blood cells (WBCs), and bacteria are present early and disappear as the bitch nears estrus. Veterinarians can only make estimates from these swabs as to when a dog may come into standing heat.


    Progesterone is low until near the end of proestrus, when it may begin to rise slightly. Estrogen is the primary hormone being produced, and is the hormone responsible for the physical and behavioral changes in the bitch, and the changes in the vaginal epithelial cells seen by vaginal cytology. Under the influence of estrogen, the vaginal wall becomes very thick and more cornified cells are collected on the vaginal swab.

    Estrus
    Estrus is the technical name for standing heat. In this stage, the bitch allows mounting and breeding by the male dog. Her vulva is still swollen but may be softer than in proestrus. Vaginal discharge is still present, and classically attains a straw color at this point, although in many dogs it remains serosanguinous. This stage lasts an average of 9 days with a range from 3 to 21 days.


    A bitch is in estrus by cytology when she has 100% cornification with >50% anuclear squames. There are virtually no RBCs, WBCs, or debris present. Veterinarians cannot predict ovulation time prospectively by vaginal cytology alone.


    Progesterone rises abruptly early in estrus, and estrogen falls off somewhat. The most important hormonal event taking place at this time is the release of a surge of luteinizing hormone (LH). The significance of this is described later. Ovulation occurs during estrus. Until a bitch ovulates, she cannot conceive. Ovulation is the most important event occurring in the heat cycle.


    Diestrus

    The bitch enters diestrus when she no longer stands to be bred. This is not an all-or-none phenomenon; some dogs are classified as being in diestrus by vaginal cytology and will still stand to be bred. The vulva will gradually decline in size through this stage. Some dogs continue to exhibit vaginal discharge, which usually is mucoid. Most dogs have no vaginal discharge during this stage. Diestrus lasts an average of 60 days and occurs in every dog, whether they were bred or not, and whether or not they conceive.


    As the bitch enters diestrus, there is an abrupt shift back to complete non-cornification and WBCs appear on vaginal cytology specimens. This occurs consistently six days after ovulation.


    Progesterone remains high throughout this period. All other hormones are fairly low until the time of whelping.

    Anestrus
    This is the interval between periods of estrous activity. This is a time of reproductive quiescence, when there is minimal hormonal activity and the dog shows no outward physical changes or unusual behaviors. Anestrus lasts an average of 4.5 to 5 months. At this stage, vaginal cytology specimens contain only a scant number cells, all of which are non-cornified.

    Nancy P



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  7. #27
    Senior Member metalone67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fowl hunter View Post
    So it's 63 days from the day the progesterone is at 5? Not the day you breed? Very helpful. Thanks.
    Its starts about 48 hrs after the AI is done, that's when eggs are fertilized. I had AI done on Sat then on Monday, started count down from Tuesday.
    5 is when she starts to ovulate but the higher the number the better the chances with AI is. My girl was at 7.6 on Thursday and when she did AI on Saturday the cervex was wide open. This was day 12 from start of cycle.

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    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    I've used multiple vets including repro specialists, never got or heard of a 3 for 1 progesterone package, since it takes as many as it takes.
    We have just experienced "it takes as many as it takes". No season is the same for the bitch. Talked to the sperm bank and they said, "If only the bitches would read the text books about this." This time, our female was s-l-o-w-e-r to ovulate than last time.

    Tests 1,2,3,and 4 she was at .2 (we were thinking something was broken at the lab).
    Test #5 she was at 1.7 -- taken on a Monday. Vet said wait until Thurs. for another test.
    Test #6 on Thurs., results in Friday morning, she had zoomed to 9.0.
    Vets did a frozen sperm surgical implant that afternoon.
    This was day #14 of her season.

    At some time between Mon. and Thurs. she went from 1.7 to 9.0. On Tues. or Wed. she must have hit the magical 5.

    Last litter she did about the same. From a Friday test result and then re-test on Monday with results on Tuesday she zoomed to 9.0. Repro vets did one side by side AI late Tuesday afternoon. 12 puppies. The side by side AI was done on day #12 of her season.

    Why 6 progesterone tests? The first one was too early. That was our fault. And then she was slow to ovulate which meant test after test until BINGO. $120 per test plus a $19 office visit= $139 per test. Plus a vaginal slide her first visit was $56. That's $890 wrapped up in progesterone tests. When I picked her up, I wrote a check to the repro clinic for $1,296. (which included the surgical implant). On top of that is the stud fee and the fees of the sperm bank to ship the frozen sperm Fed Ex Overnite, rental of the canister, return of the canister, phone calls, faxes, yada yada. However, this is Ruby's last hurrah. No more breedings; it's our last chance to get another Ruby puppy so it's worth it.

    Once you are in it, you are in it. No backing out until it is over. And now we count the days on the calendar for the ultrasound.

    Helen

  9. #29
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalone67 View Post
    Its starts about 48 hrs after the AI is done, that's when eggs are fertilized. I had AI done on Sat then on Monday, started count down from Tuesday.
    5 is when she starts to ovulate but the higher the number the better the chances with AI is. My girl was at 7.6 on Thursday and when she did AI on Saturday the cervex was wide open. This was day 12 from start of cycle.
    Once again, counting starts from ovulation, not breeding date. Ovulation generally occurs when the bitch hits 5. If one is doing progesterone testing, count to 63 from the day the bitch hits 5. If one is not doing progesterone testing, figure a window of 58-63 days from the breeding, because you won't know when the bitch ovulated.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

  10. #30
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie Foster View Post
    The advantage to using progesterone tests rather than leaving her with a stud dog for a week is that knowing the ovulation date also gives you a better indication of whelp date. When a bitch hits 5, mark your calendar for a whelp date of 63 days later (plus or minus a day). If you drop her off with a stud dog and just do breedings "when they feel like it" you may end up sitting staring at her in the whelping box for a week not knowing when the action will start.
    Mel is right on with this.

    Don and I also have this theory. If natural breedings are spaced somewhat far apart (some do 3 breedings and space them apart every other day) we think this is why you can get very small puppies. It makes sense to us that conception can take place at all 3 ties over this time period. But when the uterus says times up, all of the puppies are born so you can get some small ones that were conceived a few days after the rest. That's our theory for runts.

    Helen

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