RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Searched and took her to the Vet... heat cycle

16K views 139 replies 30 participants last post by  TJ Shanahan 
#1 ·
Okay my BLF is supposed to be going in heat. which the vet said she is starting to after doing a vaginal swab and looking at the cells on a slide, I still didn't really get the question answered tho by the vet. and I did try the search function there were just ALOT of threads about heat cycles

Started to see blood drops last friday on the floor only a drop a day till today there were multiple, do I start counting the days she is in heat last friday at the first blood drop or do I start counting today.

And... How much is a progesterone test for you all, I was planning on doing 2 to 3 but they wanted 130 a piece for them and am not so sure now and was thinking of just dropping her off at the studs place for around a week... What would you do? thanks
 
#4 ·
thank you very much
 
#5 ·
Start your count from last Friday, day 9 you should have progesterone draw. If you're doing a standing put them together on day 10 if they tie do it again on day 14.
 
#33 ·
I disagree on the time span giving for the two ties(day 10, then day 14). I think day 10 could be too early for a tie. I think ties 4 days apart is too far apart. For natural breedings, we have this system: first tie in morning, 2nd tie that evening, 3rd tie the following evening (which allows for a 24 hr. rest between ties to build up more sperm).

We think the first tie is usually shooting blanks (unless it is a well used stud dog). One time Don was gone and I was left in charge to handle a natural breeding with our Golden Retriever male. The bitch was left with us. I did 5 ties. Sure put a smile on our GR's face. He was very disappointed when it came time for No. 6. and she was not here any more.
She had 10 puppies.

Helen
 
This post has been deleted
#7 · (Edited)
We go by / I thought it is back up 1 day from the day you first see blood and count that as day 1. So much can very, progesterone is by far the best bet to know for sure! I like to start progesterone around day 8 and then usually every other day until we get the magic number.

Or just go for natural. she will flag when ready and the boys go nuts when she is ready too, again generally speaking. But progestorone really tells the truth as your mileage may very!

I mainly use 2 different vets. 1 is 2 minutes from my house in suburban city with a new building, several vets, and HIGH prices. The other is my favorite country vet, treats farm animals, is 1 hour drive, but 50% cheaper than the close one. I think I pay about $60 for the progest test at my fav country vet !
 
#9 ·
Wow, thank you for all your responses. I am doing a progesterone tommorrow just to see where she is at, I found another guy that charges 60 a time - and fairly quick turnaround on the results.
 
#11 ·
I've used multiple vets including repro specialists, never got or heard of a 3 for 1 progesterone package, since it takes as many as it takes. Depending on the bitch and taking weekends/holidays into consideration because the blood is sent out and results are back next a.m. around here, I usually do the first draw around day 6-8. I pay around $70/test, usually end up doing 2-4 tests. If the stud owner is willing to have the bitch for a week instead of timing with progesterone, go for it. Slides = waste of money in my experience, especially when there is such an accurate alternative.


As far as the number of ties, up to the stud owner.
 
#28 ·
I've used multiple vets including repro specialists, never got or heard of a 3 for 1 progesterone package, since it takes as many as it takes.
We have just experienced "it takes as many as it takes". No season is the same for the bitch. Talked to the sperm bank and they said, "If only the bitches would read the text books about this." This time, our female was s-l-o-w-e-r to ovulate than last time.

Tests 1,2,3,and 4 she was at .2 (we were thinking something was broken at the lab).
Test #5 she was at 1.7 -- taken on a Monday. Vet said wait until Thurs. for another test.
Test #6 on Thurs., results in Friday morning, she had zoomed to 9.0.
Vets did a frozen sperm surgical implant that afternoon.
This was day #14 of her season.

At some time between Mon. and Thurs. she went from 1.7 to 9.0. On Tues. or Wed. she must have hit the magical 5.

Last litter she did about the same. From a Friday test result and then re-test on Monday with results on Tuesday she zoomed to 9.0. Repro vets did one side by side AI late Tuesday afternoon. 12 puppies. The side by side AI was done on day #12 of her season.

Why 6 progesterone tests? The first one was too early. That was our fault. And then she was slow to ovulate which meant test after test until BINGO. $120 per test plus a $19 office visit= $139 per test. Plus a vaginal slide her first visit was $56. That's $890 wrapped up in progesterone tests. When I picked her up, I wrote a check to the repro clinic for $1,296. (which included the surgical implant). On top of that is the stud fee and the fees of the sperm bank to ship the frozen sperm Fed Ex Overnite, rental of the canister, return of the canister, phone calls, faxes, yada yada. However, this is Ruby's last hurrah. No more breedings; it's our last chance to get another Ruby puppy so it's worth it.

Once you are in it, you are in it. No backing out until it is over. And now we count the days on the calendar for the ultrasound.

Helen
 
#21 ·
This has been very helpful, I am sure proud to be in the company of all of you knowledgable people.
 
#22 ·
It is my understanding that the slides only tell you if she's in heat, not when she ovulates. So you'd still need to do progesterone testing for accuracy. I start testing on day 8 for a baseline, then every other. I still do progesterone with natural breedings, some stud owners will only try a couple ties and you want them to count. Also, as Melanie said, you're better prepared.
 
#25 ·
No, you can tell when they ovulate, it's just so many vets are off in their readings.

Proestrus is the first stage of heat. The bitch shows a variable amount of vulvar swelling and vaginal discharge. The discharge is most characteristically bloody and serum-like (serosanguinous) but may range in color from milky to frankly bloody. Male dogs are attracted to the bitch but she will not stand for breeding, and often tucks her tail under tightly, sits down, or turns on the male dog. This stage lasts an average of 9 days with a range from 0 to 17 days.


Vaginal cytology specimens contain a population of epithelial cells that undergo a gradual transition from a predominance of non-cornified cells to complete cornification. Red blood cells (RBCs), white blood cells (WBCs), and bacteria are present early and disappear as the bitch nears estrus. Veterinarians can only make estimates from these swabs as to when a dog may come into standing heat.


Progesterone is low until near the end of proestrus, when it may begin to rise slightly. Estrogen is the primary hormone being produced, and is the hormone responsible for the physical and behavioral changes in the bitch, and the changes in the vaginal epithelial cells seen by vaginal cytology. Under the influence of estrogen, the vaginal wall becomes very thick and more cornified cells are collected on the vaginal swab.

Estrus
Estrus is the technical name for standing heat. In this stage, the bitch allows mounting and breeding by the male dog. Her vulva is still swollen but may be softer than in proestrus. Vaginal discharge is still present, and classically attains a straw color at this point, although in many dogs it remains serosanguinous. This stage lasts an average of 9 days with a range from 3 to 21 days.


A bitch is in estrus by cytology when she has 100% cornification with >50% anuclear squames. There are virtually no RBCs, WBCs, or debris present. Veterinarians cannot predict ovulation time prospectively by vaginal cytology alone.


Progesterone rises abruptly early in estrus, and estrogen falls off somewhat. The most important hormonal event taking place at this time is the release of a surge of luteinizing hormone (LH). The significance of this is described later. Ovulation occurs during estrus. Until a bitch ovulates, she cannot conceive. Ovulation is the most important event occurring in the heat cycle.


Diestrus

The bitch enters diestrus when she no longer stands to be bred. This is not an all-or-none phenomenon; some dogs are classified as being in diestrus by vaginal cytology and will still stand to be bred. The vulva will gradually decline in size through this stage. Some dogs continue to exhibit vaginal discharge, which usually is mucoid. Most dogs have no vaginal discharge during this stage. Diestrus lasts an average of 60 days and occurs in every dog, whether they were bred or not, and whether or not they conceive.


As the bitch enters diestrus, there is an abrupt shift back to complete non-cornification and WBCs appear on vaginal cytology specimens. This occurs consistently six days after ovulation.


Progesterone remains high throughout this period. All other hormones are fairly low until the time of whelping.

Anestrus
This is the interval between periods of estrous activity. This is a time of reproductive quiescence, when there is minimal hormonal activity and the dog shows no outward physical changes or unusual behaviors. Anestrus lasts an average of 4.5 to 5 months. At this stage, vaginal cytology specimens contain only a scant number cells, all of which are non-cornified.

 
#24 ·
You breed 5 days after the LH surge......;-):p
 
#32 ·
Thanks Nancy. I've never done the slide. The vet office tried to talk me into it this past month but I got the impression they couldn't tell me anything other then when she was in standing heat as you mentioned. I think I'll stay with the progesterone :)
 
#36 ·
Tests are $75 here each time.
 
#52 ·
So, if I use your guys suggestion there is a good chance I could see puppies on March 31st which would be so cool, as it is my Birthday.
 
#53 ·
That would be pretty early, based on the day you said she hit 5. I've not seen much variance in the 63 days, usually a day either side is about it. Current litters were 11 and 3 pups, 62 & 63 days. Sometimes a huge litter will whelp a little earlier, often a small litter, 1-2 pups, won't trigger whelping at all and a csection is needed.
 
#54 ·
Nancy, Kim or Melanie might correct me on this, as I'm certainly not a breeder, but my understanding is the term "gestation" refers to a female who is carrying an implanted embryo.

Thus, there is a short gap between ovulation, fertilization, development of the zygote and implantation which is not technically "gestation".

It's been a long time since I took embryology though :-?
 
#55 ·
Nancy, Kim or Melanie might correct me on this, as I'm certainly not a breeder, but my understanding is the term "gestation" refers to a female who is carrying an implanted embryo.

Thus, there is a short gap between ovulation, fertilization, development of the zygote and implantation which is not technically "gestation".
Gestation is the period of development from fertilization of the egg(s) to birth.
 
G
#63 ·
This will NOT reliably give you a whelp date. No offense to you personally truthseeker, but y'know, there have been a lot of experienced breeders who have commented on this thread. You all can take it or leave it. And you wonder why the forum veterans get frustrated.

We speak from experience and yet there always seems to be someone that...oh whatever. Nevermind.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top