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My first time seeing myself handle on video... links attached.

14K views 69 replies 30 participants last post by  gdgnyc 
#1 ·
Well, here goes:

I debated whether or not to post these publicly. I realized that I've been handling for HT/FT/hunting since the late 80's and I have NEVER seen myself on video.

I have watched a few times and I see some things that I need to fix, and did not realize I was doing.

Here are the video links:

Rosie - not a retriever - her second time ever with gunner-thrown marks. She has not been taught proper delivery/force breaking. We probably will not do so. (never say "never" though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPEdO652hQ8&feature=channel

Bus - my lab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymW8b2YMYCY&feature=channel

Edit after watching: This is a city golf course that was recently shut down. It is in the city. No shooting allowed. Friends in law enforcement tell me blank pistol use would likely result in some squad cars and officers with guns drawn. I'm not going there!
 
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#2 ·
Rosie's a pip... What fun!!

You probably already know this but your sending way to quick once you drop your hand.

You fuss to much with Buzz hand cuing on the singles. Also you stand to high on the dog. Drop back to his hip. It will give you more room to push/pull your dog. It also opens up the field for the dog. You should step up if need be to help the dog find the gun, but then drop back before you call for the gun.

Dog should be in the middle of the mat and you on either side....

I didn't watch the video's all the way through. I've got to return some phone calls but that's what I got so far....

Don't cha love it??!! ;-)

Angie
 
#3 ·
You fuss to much with Buzz hand cuing on the singles. Dog should be in the middle of the mat and you on either side....
I noticed the same things. Funny how that FF'd dog looks like he is enjoying his work!

Good job!
 
#5 ·
At work and finally got to watch your video all the way through. Rosie looks like fun!!!!:) Buzz looked good. Runs real straight. Yes others have said you send too fast but don't we all!!! Nice place to train. Thanks for posting Chris It is a real eye opener for you when you do a video but a great learning tool.:) Thanks
 
#6 ·
Very nice! I REALLY liked the way you instructed your bird guys. Clear, concise, calm and when it went south you remained just the same. Too many shouters out there!;)

Bus is a great looking dog. But please, please tell me there is a fence between the field and that super busy street in one of the backgrounds. When the dog crossed the rise he disappeared. One that runs fast and long, could be out there before ya know it.
 
#8 ·
When the title was "HANDLE" I expected to see you perform on a blind :).
 
#12 ·
Good afternoon for you guys to be out on the veranda!
 
#13 ·
Nice Chris, only thing that stood out to me, was the quick send and we all do it, one of those thing I always have to think about myself. It was hard to tell in the video, but around the 2 minute mark, you gave a light stick correction and had the gunner pick up the mark, was the correction for the slight head swing??

We had a golf course close up here a few years ago it was good for a couple years and then it got overgrown and unusable, but it was nice while it lasted..
 
#26 ·
Nice Chris, only thing that stood out to me, was the quick send and we all do it, one of those thing I always have to think about myself. It was hard to tell in the video, but around the 2 minute mark, you gave a light stick correction and had the gunner pick up the mark, was the correction for the slight head swing??

We had a golf course close up here a few years ago it was good for a couple years and then it got overgrown and unusable, but it was nice while it lasted..

Yes Todd, the head swing was the exact reason for the tap (literally just a tap) with the stick and the pick up by Tim. It is also the reason I asked the short gun on the left to come out front and be more visible.

This was the key thing I wanted to work on with that mark...look past the short gun. Watch the long gun....really watch the long gun. Do not head swing. And then I blew part of it by sending him so fast! :cool:

I agree on the rushed sends and am not the least bit surprised that everyone saw it.

I do appreciate everyone's commentary.

I definitely need to do more video and do more self-analysis.

Thanks everyone.

Chris
 
#14 ·
More handlers should have someone video tape them while handling -- on marks and on blinds. Why do I think this?

Well, I am the wife. Long ago I was telling my husband what I thought he was doing wrong. I quickly learned that was not the smart thing to do. No more constructive criticism; I keep my mouth shut.

Years pass, he gets better as a handler, he is getting wins and placements. He goes to a Dave Rorem seminar. He gets constructive criticism from Dave (and does not bite Dave's head off). Later, in the mail he gets a video of himself handling at the Rorem seminar.

We both sit down to watch the video. I say nothing. I just watch.

He says:
"Boy, I sure look old."
"Boy, that jacket has sure shrunk up in the back."

And then very quietly under his breath,
"Why did I do that? I gotta work on that."

No matter how long you have been in the game, have someone video tape you while you are handling. You are probably not aware of the things you are doing or not doing.

Helen
 
#21 ·
Weather your high up on a dog or behind him,,,,as long as you are consistant at what your doing,,,the dog will figure it out. Each position has there advantages.
I have no idea how people line /aim their dog looking straight down on it.

But then many don't understand how someone can easily move a dog from behind.


Chris
What made Buses ears drop back,,,did you tell him to sit ,,,,?
I thought you looked way better than what I would look like. I was impressed that you can stand up so quickly after squatting.:)

Pete
 
#60 ·
Weather your high up on a dog or behind him,,,,as long as you are consistant at what your doing,,,the dog will figure it out. Each position has there advantages.
I have no idea how people line /aim their dog looking straight down on it.

But then many don't understand how someone can easily move a dog from behind.


Chris
What made Buses ears drop back,,,did you tell him to sit ,,,,?
I thought you looked way better than what I would look like. I was impressed that you can stand up so quickly after squatting.:)

Pete
Pete, I watched the video for Bus' ears and saw lots of ear movement on each retrieve setup. What is the timestamp that you're asking about? Also, you may be able to turn up your volume and actually hear whatever he heard.

I'm glad you asked this as I was not paying nearly as much attention to his head and ear position as I did as a result of this question.

Chris
 
#22 ·
Veranda for me. This weather is just too nice.
 
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#27 ·
I find that when my knee is at my dogs hip, my movements need to be larger, and I need to make more of an effort to get her attention. We work hard to keep her shoulder at my knee, and when we're successful, our movements are much more subtle and smoother.
This is my experience

As for Bon's photographs, I prefer the first set to the second set. By and large, I still prefer to be a bit more forward on the dog than it is depicted in the first set. However, the set up for a send after the first, often has other considerations
 
#28 ·
I thought Chris' body position with the dog was perfect. (They get used to how they have been trained.) What I noticed is that Chris does not put his hand down on the longer retired gun on the double. He also seemed to turn off of the short retired gun on the set up where he made the big swing to get himself in position for the next mark, sooner rather than later. I usually count 2-3 seconds from the time the mark hits the ground... unless the count by the judges is quicker than that, of course. this coincides with the quick sends. But again, Bus is used to Chris' training methods...


Loved Rosie.... but where is Violet?
 
#31 ·
I thought Chris' body position with the dog was perfect. (They get used to how they have been trained.) What I noticed is that Chris does not put his hand down on the longer retired gun on the double. He also seemed to turn off of the short retired gun on the set up where he made the big swing to get himself in position for the next mark, sooner rather than later. I usually count 2-3 seconds from the time the mark hits the ground... unless the count by the judges is quicker than that, of course. this coincides with the quick sends. But again, Bus is used to Chris' training methods...


Loved Rosie.... but where is Violet?
Susan,

Your critique nails exactly what drives me the most nuts when I view the video.

My goals were to do 2 things. I wanted marks that were pretty low on the difficulty level - likely to produce success. I wanted to work on head swinging on the 2nd mark thrown. I wanted to work on live human-thrown retired marks.

It drives me NUTS how fast I swung off of both retired marks to turn to the short "go bird", which is really just thrown to set up the retired memory bird. I almost cancelled out the whole purpose of the first setup, which was to work on head swinging.

I want to work on head swinging more. I do think he may have learned something on that head swing, and I intentionally just gave him a tiny tap to tell him he's not to swing to that short gun. I do agree that my attempts to really work with him to get him to lock in on that long gun and NOT swing over to the short left mark (did not show well in video) were fidgety looking. It is entirely possible that I worried him by the repeated cueing and hand movements.

I did send him fast on that head swinging mark after the stick tap. I did this because he did as I was urging and stayed focused on that mark and did not head swing. I decided to kick him off fast and set him up for success once he stayed looking at that long mark.

On the "no hand send" for the retired memory birds: I used to "always" put a hand down for all memory birds with Bus. I stopped this when coached to avoid it in Summer of 2009 at a workshop in Montello.

We were urged to not use a hand on memory birds, in general, unless it was to drive the dog deep. In both of the retired marks we ran, they were plopping right out in a "want to go to" spot (in my opinion). I did not want to drive the dog deep, due to the location of the marks and the fact that there were roads behind the marks. (and no, there is no fence between the mark and that busy road - to answer someone who mentioned that)

I also realize that "golf course marks" are not the sort of thing that's going to help us hammer All Age work. I do try to use that setting to work on concepts like retired mark mechanics and head swinging.

Now to just slow down and not rush!

Violet was on the truck. Since Rosie came along, Vi has decided bumpers are for nerds. Give Violet a mole or a mouse and she's game-on. In the absence of a rodent, a UPS driver or Schwann's man will do :cool:. (just kidding :D )
 
#39 ·
Videos of you handling can be humbling but at the same time a good learning experience.
 
#40 ·
Wayne, I can honestly say that I'd have not posted the videos at all if I'd not seen you have the guts to do it. I mean that sincerely.

I've gotten feedback on the stuff that bothered me. I've gotten feedback on some stuff I'd not thought of. I've gotten feedback on my butt and my brindle pit.

Overall, I'm very glad I posted the videos!
 
#42 ·
I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog.
 
#43 ·
I prefer to run dogs high up on their shoulder. Makes it easier to make fine corrections to their line with out a lot of fuss. Works especially well on lines for blinds.. I find it much harder to make subtle corrections if I am not well up on the dog
I think you ment,,,it makes it easier for you to make fine corrections without much fuss.

If I ran a dog from that high up i'd never get him to settle in and lock. It would respond to every breath I take, and more than likely any arm movement what so ever would change its positioning.

So that style could be said to be counter to the way I train. Thats all it is.style.
I like how Don Romeins position,,,,it seems more comfortable to me.

I just can't see a right or wrong way of doing this. As long as the dog responds to you than thats the right way.

I think people fight to try to emmulate icons. I think we should do whats comfortable for us.

If we can't make it work that way or if it affects something down the road,,,,then change.. my 02%

Pete
 
#44 ·
I think you ment,,,it makes it easier for you to make fine corrections without much fuss.

If I ran a dog from that high up i'd never get him to settle in and lock. It would respond to every breath I take, and more than likely any arm movement what so ever would change its positioning.

So that style could be said to be counter to the way I train. Thats all it is.style.
I like how Don Romeins position,,,,it seems more comfortable to me.

I just can't see a right or wrong way of doing this. As long as the dog responds to you than thats the right way.

I think people fight to try to emmulate icons. I think we should do whats comfortable for us.

If we can't make it work that way or if it affects something down the road,,,,then change.. my 02%

Pete
Two percent? haha... I like it!

Hey, look what a little bird sent me via email.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjFLgARvx-w

I had never seen this video clip before a moment ago. For me, this makes very good sense. I like it.

Chris
 
#47 ·
Okay, not that I have much room to talk, but my Butthead has been a work in progress....not only him, but myself, too.

I have learned I like to be up on him, not back by the hip. This is not how we started out together and he was definitely driving the bus when I was back by his hip. Also from a "flow" perspective when setting up for the marks and while they are being thrown, I find my self more comfortable being up on his shoulder and my movements to help move him from gun to gun is smoother for both of us - i send less mixed signals.

Of course I do manage to screw it up from time to time but we are a work in progress.

Also I have found out I can line him up easier on blinds by being up by his shoulder...

FOM
 
#49 ·
3) To emphatically show the dog the right way to go, when the conditions show a strong tendency for previous dogs' ( or the obvious intentions of the dog at your side ) to go other than the "right" way.
OK Chris, short retired but the dogs want to go left of some obstacle. Dogs that went left haven't been successful. Your dog wants to line up left. The hand drives them deep but emphasizes the right line. Whatcha do, hand or no hand?



In the past, I have used my hand to line them and then taken it away and stood up, trying not to loom over them which seems to pressure them driving them deep, waited them out making sure they're committed to the line and then send them soft. Does work :cool: ......... Sometimes :p
 
#52 ·
OK Chris, short retired but the dogs want to go left of some obstacle. Dogs that went left haven't been successful. Your dog wants to line up left. The hand drives them deep but emphasizes the right line. Whatcha do, hand or no hand?



In the past, I have used my hand to line them and then taken it away and stood up, trying not to loom over them which seems to pressure them driving them deep, waited them out making sure they're committed to the line and then send them soft. Does work :cool: ......... Sometimes :p

I wait for the ear flick........ when I get the ear flick, I've got it... (usually.... ;)). It means "I've heard you... now, just let me go...":D

What is your "tell" sign on the committment Howard?
 
#50 ·
Two percent? haha... I like it!

Hey, look what a little bird sent me via email.
Thanks Chris
I liked the video,,,It must be nice to have acess to little birdies,,,,, who am I to argue with an Icon in the retriever sports.



I do have to ask though
Has anyone ever won an open with the dog in the butt/heel of foot position.?
\
Just a thought to throw in to the mix
Handling is Communication ,,,, not just when you choose to blow a whistle or not to..
A dog doesn't have to see your hand over his head to know its there.
Very interesting topic.






I put the % thingy to bring a smile,,I'm smiling that you noticed it. I tried to kill 2 birds with 1 symbol.:)


Pete
 
#53 ·
I don't have anything Susan. Or when I have, they've all done something I didn't expect. I used to wait for the lean in but that doesn't work. Now I wait, then wait some more then put my hand in and sent on the long ones. Short ones I stand back and watch and wait until I'm sure.

I've blown it a lot too. :confused:
 
#54 ·
This is a GREAT thread!!! Trials are won and lost in that 3'X3' area. It's great to have folks with history and experience "discuss" the various nuances. This use to take years to learn/understand now in a few days the average Joe has a wealth of information.... Being able to apply it at the line under pressure .....Priceless :)
 
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