New Member-Breeding Question

[firehouselabs]

"Okay, here is where I think a lot of people lose a lot of money, worrying about things they can do nothing about. These dogs PASSED CERF once, why would you do it again and again in the future? Especially at 5 and 6 years of age when the dog has most likely been bred multiple times? At that point, you aren't going to be able to change anything. Even if your dog passes all the CERF's, he/she could still throw pups with eye issues.
I feel it is a great pull from Eye vets to get as much money as possible out of breeders........."


Here is why you should do multiple CERF's. Friend of mine bought a pup who was to become her future stud dog. At a young age-under 6 months- he was CERF'd clear. Owner tends to breed on Preliminary hip and elbow reports from OFA, and he was used as a stud at 11 months of age and again at 16 months. Just before being bred a third and fourth time, co-owner of said females told stud owner to get the dog CERF'd again before breeding to these two females. She did and the results were severe Juvenile Cataracts in both eyes, failed CERF, NOT recommended for using as a stud dog. This is before the dog even turned two yrs old, and had sired two litters.
Did getting the re-CERF change the fact that he sired two litters? NO. Nothing can be done at this point to change that fact. However, it DID prevent producing more pups with future litters. Which is the whole point in doing CERF exams at multiple times to catch those diseases that tend to not show up until certain points in a dogs life.

As to the frequency that the female is being bred in the OP, I don't know the dog or the conditions of the dog or her living conditions. Maybe they plan on breeding three in a row and then spay? so that she can have the pups while relatively young and healthy and then enjoy "retirement" and training.

[mharville]

Is it routine to breed a dog at 11 months? That sounds jacked up to me, but i just really don't know. He'd hafta be a bad man for me to want to breed a female to him at 11 months!

[roseberry]

blake,
only you know what you want and what you can afford. you are right to ask questions of others about your thinking and logic in this decision making process. we didn't see your pm's. but please understand that when people offer advice and opinion in regards to a question, they are giving you information they are passionate about. this passion is because they have been where you are now and learned some lessons the hard way. no one should be condescending, no one should belittle a question.

my thoughts are:

-if you want a chocolate dog.....buy a chocolate dog!
-i don't know "blaze" but if he is grhrch......he's a good'un!
-i don't know shadow, she has no titles but her breeding is sound by a notable fc afc choc sire. if you spend time with her and like the performance attributes you see out of "her"......then she's a good'un too!
-imho from info provided, chances of getting a good buddy/hunting dog.....very good, chances for that plus hunt test dog....good, any talent beyond that is just a bonus. chances of a dud....much less than in the news paper!
-most health clearances/tests are in place. you can assess your own risks of those not in place or tested!

if the price is right for you and you judge the price to be in line with the potential risks/unknowns....go for it. could you spend a lot more on another breeding and have a better chance.....yes, probably.

[blake_mhoona]

blake,
only you know what you want and what you can afford. you are right to ask questions of others about your thinking and logic in this decision making process. we didn't see your pm's. but please understand that when people offer advice and opinion in regards to a question, they are giving you information they are passionate about. this passion is because they have been where you are now and learned some lessons the hard way. no one should be condescending, no one should belittle a question.

my thoughts are:

-if you want a chocolate dog.....buy a chocolate dog!
-i don't know "blaze" but if he is grhrch......he's a good'un!
-i don't know shadow, she has no titles but her breeding is sound by a notable fc afc choc sire. if you spend time with her and like the performance attributes you see out of "her"......then she's a good'un too!
-imho from info provided, chances of getting a good buddy/hunting dog.....very good, chances for that plus hunt test dog....good, any talent beyond that is just a bonus. chances of a dud....much less than in the news paper!
-most health clearances/tests are in place. you can assess your own risks of those not in place or tested!

if the price is right for you and you judge the price to be in line with the potential risks/unknowns....go for it. could you spend a lot more on another breeding and have a better chance.....yes, probably.

thanks for the input!

for those that were wondering when i said go back to my cupboard i did not mean clam up and stop posting i just meant that i thought this thread was basically usless after i was informed how this forum works. yet i had 2-3 very helpful pm's i couldnt respond to because i needed 10 posts. so i was posting back to back and i was sorry for stepping on toes of people who might of opened this thread and seen my useless posts on getting my post count up. on the 10th post i put the cupboard line just to let everyone know that this thread can now roll off the first page in to oblivion

but if there's good discussion by all means keep it going.

believe me i dont think there is any way of shutting me out, up, or down when it comes to this new and uncharted territory

[helencalif]

Is it routine to breed a dog at 11 months? That sounds jacked up to me, but i just really don't know. He'd hafta be a bad man for me to want to breed a female to him at 11 months!

It is not "routine" to breed a dog at 11 months. If they did breed a dog at 11 months of age, they did not care about not getting hip or elbow clearances. For those clearances, the dog must be at least 24 months in order to have hips and elbows x-rayed for OFA clearances.

Helen

[firehouselabs]

Okay, here is where I think a lot of people lose a lot of money, worrying about things they can do nothing about. These dogs PASSED CERF once, why would you do it again and again in the future? Especially at 5 and 6 years of age when the dog has most likely been bred multiple times? At that point, you aren't going to be able to change anything. Even if your dog passes all the CERF's, he/she could still throw pups with eye issues.
I feel it is a great pull from Eye vets to get as much money as possible out of breeders.........


I don't know the breeder, I don't know the dog. But there is nothing poor about simply breeding a female 3 heat cycles in a row. It is simply a humans look at how "we" would feel about it. Did you look at the dog? If the dog is in excellent condition, does a great job with her puppies, rebounds very quickly from her litters, I see nothing wrong with doing several litters in a row. How do you know that the dog doesn't go 9 months between her cycles? That leaves 6 months in between to hang out, rebound a bit, and continue enjoying life.

Best regards

Is it routine to breed a dog at 11 months? That sounds jacked up to me, but i just really don't know. He'd hafta be a bad man for me to want to breed a female to him at 11 months!

Depends on the type of breeder one is, the reason for being that type of breeder, more than the type of dog one is breeding to in most instants. This particular friend breeds for color and pets only. Not going to get into the "right" or "wrong" of it....everyone has their opinions on the subject. That is up to the individual and their own code of ethics towards the breed.
But no, breeding at this age especially in this case is not considered the "norm".

[windycanyon]

"Okay, here is where I think a lot of people lose a lot of money, worrying about things they can do nothing about. These dogs PASSED CERF once, why would you do it again and again in the future? Especially at 5 and 6 years of age when the dog has most likely been bred multiple times? At that point, you aren't going to be able to change anything. Even if your dog passes all the CERF's, he/she could still throw pups with eye issues.
I feel it is a great pull from Eye vets to get as much money as possible out of breeders........."


Here is why you should do multiple CERF's. Friend of mine bought a pup who was to become her future stud dog. At a young age-under 6 months- he was CERF'd clear. Owner tends to breed on Preliminary hip and elbow reports from OFA, and he was used as a stud at 11 months of age and again at 16 months. Just before being bred a third and fourth time, co-owner of said females told stud owner to get the dog CERF'd again before breeding to these two females. She did and the results were severe Juvenile Cataracts in both eyes, failed CERF, NOT recommended for using as a stud dog. This is before the dog even turned two yrs old, and had sired two litters.
Did getting the re-CERF change the fact that he sired two litters? NO. Nothing can be done at this point to change that fact. However, it DID prevent producing more pups with future litters. Which is the whole point in doing CERF exams at multiple times to catch those diseases that tend to not show up until certain points in a dogs life.

Thank you. Crap like this happens more than some would like to admit. I never really realized until recently that some folks didn't understand WHY CERF was required annually. For my own club, it remains a requirement thru age 10 though I suspect that will be scaled back to ~age 6 for dogs that are DNA tested for PRA. In the meantime, I will CERF annually thru 6-7 and recheck every other year at least-- for MY breeding records / history at minimum.

The eyes are the window for a lot of other health issues too, btw. I've heard of cases of SARDs (sudden acquired retinal dysplasia) and severe allergies causing retinal detachment. Maybe or maybe not genetic, but it sure makes sense to me to have my ACVO's number in my pocket.

[larsenslabs]

As far as getting a pup from the litter you spoke of, I for one wouldn't hesitate for a minute. I have heard the same story for years about "The initial price is just the beginning." That, in itself, is true. However, if you are in the same financial condition as I was in when I got my first several dogs, you pay what you can AFFORD to pay. The only dog I have had a problem with as far as genetic defects was the last dog that I got which was from an exceptional stud. It was also the most expensive dog I had purchased up to this point. It also had hip problems, even though the stud was listed as excellent and the dam good. What I ended up with was a decent hunting dog with once questionable hip socket and half my money back as long as I was going to keep the dog. Returning the dog isn't a very easy thing to do when you have had her in the family for two years and have a goodly amount of training into her. The male that I have had virtually no AFC's or FC's in the first three generations, is an excellent hunting dog, good hips, a proven sire (I don't do hunt tests so no titles), and a dog that almost anyone (except those who hate chocolate) would be proud to show off in the field or the show ring. Incidentally, I paid about half what I paid for the female and about half what I paid for the one I am getting that hasn't been born yet. I hope this new one is half the dog that Buck is!!

By the way blake_mhoona, I would pm you but I don't have enough posts!!

LL