The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Gun Dog Broker
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 30 of 30

Thread: Tips on squarin up on whistle sits???

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Jonesboro, GA
    Posts
    2,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by troy schwab View Post
    This is what I was initially prescribed by someone....... found out that in order to get enough sits..... it seriously eroded his momentum..... wont go back to this..... I do mix it it occasionally though.
    Just so that folks don't get confused, going back to pile work does not errode momentum if done properly by giving lots of freebies between stops as described in Lardy's RJ article. If not done properly, pile work can lead to all sorts of problems. Again, this is described in Lardy's material.

  2. #22
    Senior Member 8mmag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Clarkston, Michigan
    Posts
    311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captainjack View Post
    Just so that folks don't get confused, going back to pile work does not errode momentum if done properly by giving lots of freebies between stops as described in Lardy's RJ article. If not done properly, pile work can lead to all sorts of problems. Again, this is described in Lardy's material.
    X2. I've seen lots of dogs with poor momentum on blinds. Therefore I am erring on the side of caution on the pile work, giving more freebees than even recommended. Takes longer to get the pile work completed that way, but I still have good momentum in my pup and haven't had any popping issues...yet.

  3. #23
    Member WhisperingHills's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Silverton, Oregon
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    ...Why is it so critical that the dog sit square? Why make an issue out of it? ....

    /Paul
    It's critical because if the dog is not square, he's very unlikely to take the next cast accurately - that leads to having to give him multiple casts to get him on the correct line - and that becomes a sloppy handle right away.

    When your dog doesn't square up to you, it's usually because he is anticipating your next cast. In other words, he has his mind set on the direction he wants you to send him - he's second-guessing you. From the judges perspective, the dog will appear to be responding poorly to your casts and you will appear to be a weak handler.

    The easiest way to develop a nice square stop/sit is to call the dog in just a few steps and repeat the stop sit until he sits facing you squarely. Another important technique (for training sessions only) is to give him more variation so that he never knows which way your next cast will direct him. Double and triple T patterns with lots of variation will break him of second-guessing your next command.
    Last edited by WhisperingHills; 04-04-2012 at 11:50 AM.
    Jeff Jennings
    Whispering Hills Kennels
    Silverton, Oregon

  4. #24
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,612

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WhisperingHills View Post
    It's critical because if the dog is not square, he's very unlikely to take the next cast accurately - that leads to having to give him multiple casts to get him on the correct line - and that becomes a sloppy handle right away.

    When your dog doesn't square up to you, it's usually because he is anticipating your next cast. In other words, he has his mind set on the direction he wants you to send him - he's second-guessing you. From the judges perspective, the dog will appear to be responding poorly to your casts and you will appear to be a weak handler.

    The easiest way to develop a nice square stop/sit is to call the dog in just a few steps and repeat the stop sit until he sits facing you squarely. Another important technique (for training sessions only) is to give him more variation so that he never knows which way your next cast will direct him. Double and triple T patterns with lots of variation will break him of second-guessing your next command.
    I would contend that if I have to get the dog to sit straight every single time by calling him in, that is sloppy handling and is also multiple casts. In the method you describe in your last paragraph one could ask, is the dog learning to sit square or is he responding to attrition to properly take the next cast? In my method I know for sure he is learning to take the proper cast and over time and experience the sitting issue takes care of it without me having to make an issue of it.

    As for your second paragraph on what judges think, I've never once thought that when watching a dog run. Typically its momentum that keeps a dog from getting turned all the way around. Most of your post seems focused on testing vs training. Big difference


    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  5. #25
    Senior Member troy schwab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    897

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 8mmag View Post
    X2. I've seen lots of dogs with poor momentum on blinds. Therefore I am erring on the side of caution on the pile work, giving more freebees than even recommended. Takes longer to get the pile work completed that way, but I still have good momentum in my pup and haven't had any popping issues...yet.
    I had momentum issues big time with this dog initially....... I blame me for that. Since, I have extended his pile work dramatically.... Ive been running him on pattern blinds and pile work up to 150 yds, just to build momentum. This has worked great actually. Now I am trying to clean up his sit. I think GunDog2002 is spot on..... I think the increase in his momentum has caused this crooked sit. We will work on it, and again, I thank everyone for the advice.
    SHR Presque Isle Jaeger Schwab JH (driving the bus)

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Jonesboro, GA
    Posts
    2,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by troy schwab View Post
    I had momentum issues big time with this dog initially....... I blame me for that. Since, I have extended his pile work dramatically.... Ive been running him on pattern blinds and pile work up to 150 yds, just to build momentum. This has worked great actually. Now I am trying to clean up his sit. I think GunDog2002 is spot on..... I think the increase in his momentum has caused this crooked sit. We will work on it, and again, I thank everyone for the advice.
    Pile work to fix loopy & crooked sits, as well as pile work in basics, as Lardy describes is done at much shorter distances than you describe, maybe 35-40 yards. The dog would likely be stopped only 1 time on a send with plenty of freebies between sends where you stop the dog. The whole idea is to get the dog out of the field and into the yard to focus on the problem. Then transition the new skill to the field with BB blinds before going back to running real blinds in the field. I really recommend that you find the Lardy article before proceeding.

  7. #27
    Senior Member troy schwab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    897

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by captainjack View Post
    Pile work to fix loopy & crooked sits, as well as pile work in basics, as Lardy describes is done at much shorter distances than you describe, maybe 35-40 yards. The dog would likely be stopped only 1 time on a send with plenty of freebies between sends where you stop the dog. The whole idea is to get the dog out of the field and into the yard to focus on the problem. Then transition the new skill to the field with BB blinds before going back to running real blinds in the field. I really recommend that you find the Lardy article before proceeding.
    If you read my original post...... this very rarely happens inside of fifty yards....... his sit is much better there..... I am mainly seeing this as the dog is rolling on line past about 60 yds...... my yard aint big enough regards........LOL
    SHR Presque Isle Jaeger Schwab JH (driving the bus)

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Jonesboro, GA
    Posts
    2,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by troy schwab View Post
    If you read my original post...... this very rarely happens inside of fifty yards....... his sit is much better there..... I am mainly seeing this as the dog is rolling on line past about 60 yds...... my yard aint big enough regards........LOL
    Last post on this thread, I promise...

    You teach or review the skill in the yard at short distance. When good, which for your pup will be in one session I guess, go do BB blinds at longer distance and more field like setting. When good, add distance and do the BB blinds in another location. When good, go back to the field and run cold blind.

    This is the key...
    You have taught the dog the required response in the yard, you have transitioned to BB blinds and maintained the standard by correcting for crooked sits and you have praised for good square sits. Now you have the tools and the dog has the understanding to correct the dog in a field setting.

  9. #29
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    West Central AL
    Posts
    1,107

    Default

    I almost caused myself a real problem trying to square up my dog's whistle sit. I probably did it too much, and it got in his head such that he lost momentum and started what I would call almost popping; he wouldn't turn, but his momentum was terrible and you could tell he was at the ready to hear the whistle and stop.

    I gave him about 3 days off and then ran some very short pile stuff for about 3 days with no whistle sits at all. I even went as far as throwing some of the bumpers back to the pile and running him to it as a mark, which caused him to throw dirt on me as he left, and praising the heck out of him when he came back. I very slowly reintroduced the whistle stop, at a much lower frequency, and now he is much better.

    We have just started swim-by, and for various reasons I can't do it every day, so on the days I can't do it I am still running him to the pile in my yard. Curiously, after about three sessions of swim-by, the little shopping issue he has always had seems to have cleared itself up.

    It still amazes me how these animals figure all this stuff out. I wish I could say I was helping, but sometimes it feels like he may really be doing what he is doing in spite of me.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    5,061

    Default

    I lean toward Howard's take on square sits. I do have a treatment for dogs that are chronic crooked on whistle sits because I believe it affects the overall accuracy of how most dogs cast. But it should be considered that some dogs with a crooked sit do it to such a small degree that it's not worth creating a battle about.

    I also agree that it is an issue that sometimes goes away through attrition. Give it some thought before making it more of an issue than it may be.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •