God vs. Science

[HPL]

[QUOTE=ARay11;951616][quote=HPL;951592]
[/COLOR]
The suffering we as humans endure is self inflicted. I do not believe He takes pleasure in it. In fact, I believe it saddens Him greatly. In giving humans free choice, sometimes we choose wrong. But, we can always change our minds

I find that statement hard to swallow. What could a child with cancer or some other hideous affliction possibly have done to bring in on itself? There is simply too much suffering among what are clearly innocents to believe that it was all self inflicted, and an omnipotent God could, of course STOP the suffering with a simple thought. As to free choice, if God is omniscient, free choice is only an illusion since God KNOWS what the outcome will be from the beginning of time, thus the outcome (and the choices that lead you there) are pre-ordained.

[coachmo]

So if you know the potential outcome of an event and ignore it is that not an example of free will? Just like if you choose to act upon that knowledge and possibly change the outcome is that not also free will? Not sure how GOD knowing the outcome has to do with human beings making choices. Isn't that the whole premise of free choice?

[ARay11]

[quote=HPL;951664][quote=ARay11;951616]

[/color]
The suffering we as humans endure is self inflicted. I do not believe He takes pleasure in it. In fact, I believe it saddens Him greatly. In giving humans free choice, sometimes we choose wrong. But, we can always change our minds

I find that statement hard to swallow. What could a child with cancer or some other hideous affliction possibly have done to bring in on itself? There is simply too much suffering among what are clearly innocents to believe that it was all self inflicted, and an omnipotent God could, of course STOP the suffering with a simple thought. As to free choice, if God is omniscient, free choice is only an illusion since God KNOWS what the outcome will be from the beginning of time, thus the outcome (and the choices that lead you there) are pre-ordained.

The child would not have brought it on themselves, but wouldn't you agree that breeding might have something to do with it? Dogs dont choose to have inherited disorders, but they are genetically passed on. Think about it... "responsible" breeding might be as good for humans as it is our dogs. Nope, I didnt choose my mate that way, and I am not advocating that.. just sayin it's a choice we make.

He could have given us all the knowledge to go to the moon and protection to not die from doing it, and in fact force us to love Him. I think He knows whats on each road we choose, but not necessarily which road we will choose. Will He help me choose a road? Only if I ask Him to. I do not believe every second of every day is pre-ordained and I do not remember reading that anywhere in the Bible. I'm not saying I am any kind of an expert on the Bible, I am far from that.

[mudminnow]

A few things:

-God never says "woops", if you believe in a god that says woops, you might as well not believe in a God.

-God weeps at pain and suffering "Jesus wept"

- I cannot reconcile free will and God ordaining everything that happens, but if there is a God i am sure he has figured that one out. "who can know the mind of God"

- Things like cancer, pain, etc did not exist until humans tried to be like God, (Eden)

- If you see a child with cancer suffering, why is it always from a God who doesn't care? Would you tell those parents that God does not care about your child (ie. if God really cared about you wou would have no children because there is a possibility they might suffer) and they are not a good gift? Even if they have cancer, in the scope of eternity the time with cancer is minute compared to the time in the new heavens and new earth (where kids don't have cancer and our dogs line 600 yd blinds)


Just some things to think about

[BonMallari]

I would never presume to tell you how to train your dog, Bon, as I struggle with getting my own dog trained!

stan b

and I would never presume to tell you that your house of worship was built on lies, myths , or pagan rituals, as I struggle to keep my own house in order

Now if you care to talk MLB and Brew Crew vs Dodgers, I can be your huckleberry

[HPL]

So if you know the potential outcome of an event and ignore it is that not an example of free will? Just like if you choose to act upon that knowledge and possibly change the outcome is that not also free will? Not sure how GOD knowing the outcome has to do with human beings making choices. Isn't that the whole premise of free choice?

You are completely missing the point. It's not knowing POTENTIAL outcome that we are talking about here. Certainly if God exists and is omniscient and omnipotent, and if all is according to His plan, HE has free will, it is we who only have the illusion of free will. If everything happens according to God's plan, then all is pre-ordained, even the choices we think we are using our free will to make. I am not a student of formal logic, so I may be making some logical fallacy and if I am I wish someone would tell me what it is and explain it to me, but this is how I see it: If any being knows beforehand absolutely (not potentially) what the outcome of an event is going to be (and that would be part of the definition of omniscience), then the outcome is predetermined, and thus the choices (those would be the choices we make) that lead up to that outcome are also predetermined, so no actual free choice on the part of those whose choices are predetermined leading up to the predetermined outcome.

[HPL]

[QUOTE=ARay11;951677][quote=HPL;951664]

The child would not have brought it on themselves, but wouldn't you agree that breeding might have something to do with it?

But the child is the one suffering, so that seems to go against the statement that the suffering we experience is due to our own actions, which brings us back to a mean, unmerciful deity.

I think He knows whats on each road we choose, but not necessarily which road we will choose.

Most believers that I know attribute omniscience to the God in which they believe, which would mean that He does know what path you will choose and thus whether a lamb or a goat. Since he knew you in the womb, I would say that your destiny is known to Him always. Surely you don't believe that God can be surprised?

[road kill]

and I would never presume to tell you that your house of worship was built on lies, myths , or pagan rituals, as I struggle to keep my own house in order

Now if you care to talk MLB and Brew Crew vs Dodgers, I can be your huckleberry

I guess that seperates us from the enlightened elite then, doesn't it!!??!!??


RK

[coachmo]

HPL, no I believe you are completely off base on this. Explain how GOD having the foreknowledge of what you are going to do interferes with your free will. Just because GOD knows what you are going to do doesn't mean you are not free to make choices. Your free choices are still "free" even if GOD knows what they will be. Furthermore, your logic does not hold true if you consider that He doesn't interfere even when all of the nonbelievers thinks He should in order to prove He exists. You can't have it both ways!! I'm never going to change my point of view and GOD knows you will probably never change yours but you are free to do so if you choose too!!!!!!

[HPL]

HPL, no I believe you are completely off base on this. Explain how GOD having the foreknowledge of what you are going to do interferes with your free will. Just because GOD knows what you are going to do doesn't mean you are not free to make choices. Your free choices are still "free" even if GOD knows what they will be. Furthermore, your logic does not hold true if you consider that He doesn't interfere even when all of the nonbelievers thinks He should in order to prove He exists. You can't have it both ways!! I'm never going to change my point of view and GOD knows you will probably never change yours but you are free to do so if you choose too!!!!!!

It is not just that He knows but that what happens is according to His plan, thus predetermined and thus even though you may have the illusion of free choice, since the outcome is pre-known and thus predetermined, your free choice is only an illusion (if all happens according to God's plan). Do you believe that God can be surprised or that He is subject to the law of unintended consequences? If not, then EVERYTHING that happens is known in advance by God and thus pre-determined. I suppose the root question here for the believers is "is God all-knowing?"