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Thread: Fast & Furious: research for the truth

  1. #1
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    Default Fast & Furious: research for the truth

    Fast & Furious has grabbed my attention. I bounce around on the major networks to see what they are reporting on Fast & Furious. I have watched 4 of the hearings in their entirety and read on the net about the ones I missed. I have spent a lot of time on the net seeking news coverage. I also visit the Oversight Committee's website to read their progress reporting.

    What is amazing to me are the errors reported by reporters and commentary analysts. Yes, incorrect information has been on Fox News, too. Last Friday's "The Five" program had me shouting at Juan Williams. "You are an idiot, Juan. You haven't spent any research time to get the facts straight before you give an opinion." Operation Wide Receiver (Bush administration) was started and then stopped. (Fast & Furious started during the Obama adm.) Wide Receiver was an entirely different operation than Fast & Furious. The guns had GPS units installed so they could be tracked. Arizona ATF agents followed the guns; Mexico was part of the sting. They followed the guns after they crossed the border. Arrests were made. Less than 300 guns were involved. When it was discovered that the gun cartels had discovered how the guns were being tracked and removed the GPS units, the program was ended immediately.

    While the ATF office in Arizona handled F & F and while it was approved by the ATF head in WA DC, the DOJ also knew about it and had meetings about it. We have to assume that the approval to run the operation went from ATF up through the DOJ at least through and to several Deputy AG's as they attended DOJ meetings.

    The question is: did knowledge of F&F stop at the Deputy AG level without their reporting Fast & Furious to Holder? Is that how the DOJ works? Keep the boss in the dark? We already know that Holder misspoke when he said in a hearing that he had learned about it only recently. UH, emails were found which proved Holder had lied about when he said knew about F & F.

    Over 2,000 illegal guns were made available to gun shop owners by ATF (that's substantially more than the almost 300 involved in Wide Receiver before it was shut down.)

    The gunshop owners then sold the guns to straw buyers and the guns made their way to Mexican drug cartels. Over 2,000 guns... this was not a cheap gun-walking operation. Somebody higher than ATF had to approve this type of expenditure. Instead of watching the guns (which was given as the purpose of the operation), the ATF agents were told to stand down and to not follow them to the Mexican border. If customs caught the guns at the border, they were told by ATF to let them pass.

    Neither ATF nor the DOJ told Mexico about this gun-walking operation so there were no Mexican authorities on the other side of the border watching where the guns went (which was done in previous gun-walking operations).

    So if ATF was not going to monitor the over 2,000 guns nor tell Mexico so they could monitor the guns, exactly what was the purpose for the gun-walking operation? In reality, the ATF / DOJ supplied the Mexican cartels with over 2,000 AK47s, 50 caliber rifles, and other illegal guns. As of this date, they don't know where most of the guns went. They do know one Border Agent was killed and the estimate they give is that around 200 Mexican people have been killed by those guns. No explanation as to how they arrived at that figure.

    No figures have been released as to where the guns have shown up in other crimes and where those crimes took place in the US. A Texas congressman wrote a letter to the DOJ asking how many guns have ended up in Texas and to what crimes they can be attibuted. The DOJ has not replied to his letter.

    An ATF / DOJ cover-up? Did the ATF / DOJ lie to the House Oversight Committee ? Yes. For over 10 months they denied that the F & F operation existed.
    A whistle blower changed that.

    What did Holder know, when did he know it, and did he give approval for F & F ? The answers may be in the documents that the Oversight Committee has requested. Does it go beyond the AG and does it lead to the White House? There is a reason why AG Holder will not provide the documents and why the President requested executive privilege. Sort of like Nixon who used executive privilege so the WH tape recordings would not become public. The Supreme Court ruled on that one; the tape recordings became public and Nixon resigned over a botched petty burglary attempt. It pales by comparison to Fast & Furious.

    Helen

  2. #2
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    About the wiretaps (according to the Oversight Committee's website) ...

    The DOJ has contended that F & F was something cooked up and run out of the Phoenix ATF office by rogue ATF agents. However, the head of ATF Melson has resigned over this. The DOJ has said that F & F went no higher than the head of ATF. Eric Holder has stated that no one at the DOJ knew about F &F.

    However, six wiretaps were submitted to the DOJ in Wash. DC to Asst AG Lanny Breuer of the DOJ Criminal Division for his review of F & F tactics and for his approval of the tactics. Thus, at least Asst AG Lanny Breuer at DOJ not only knew about F & F, he approved the tactics as Fast & Furious continued.

    The contents of the wiretaps have been sealed. While they can be shared (and have been shared) amongst the Oversight Committee who obtained copies of them, the Oversight Committee can't make them public as long as the seal exists. Documents about the contents of the wiretaps are part of the Committee's document request which Holder has ignored. If you were wondering what documents Issa wants and Holder won't give up, some of them have to do with the wiretaps because they prove that Fast & Furious was known by the head of DOJ's Criminal Division and also had the approval of him. If Breuer told Holder about the F & F tactics which he (Breuer) approved, this might be in emails between Breuer and Holder. Thus, a cover up at a high level in the DOJ.

    Helen

  3. #3
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    In July 2011, ATF Chief Kenneth Melson was questioned behind closed doors about Fast & Furious by Senate and House investigators. Later some of Melson's information was released by them.

    Melson told them that the ATF gave reports to DOJ "superiors" about the failure of ATF to interdict guns (stop the guns) at the Mexican border when they could have stopped the guns and should have stopped the guns, but that the ATF agents were apparently told to stand down and to let them cross the border. (The public release did not report who told the ATF agents to let the guns go into Mexico.)

    Melson was not fired. A month later (Aug 2011) he resigned as the head of the ATF and moved over to work at the Office of Legal Policy.

    Helen
    Last edited by helencalif; 06-25-2012 at 04:46 PM.

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    Senior Member pat addis's Avatar
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    how quick would this info get out if the letters nra were in it some where. i belive that is the true reason all this has happened so they could get more gun control laws they hoped that some woul get to some right wingers. don't forget shortly after this gang of morons got in office they sent out memos to watch put for cars with pro gun stickers on them as potential terrorist gang

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    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Good research, Helen.

    This really smells bad. Also seems like no one has come up with a valid reason for this operation letting the guns out of control of ATF surveilance, especially with its large scope, Was there ever a plan to catch any of the bad guys? If there was, did somebody forget to write the memo on that part?
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    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    The fact that ATF lacked any way to track the guns makes the F & F operation smell bad.
    The fact that the ATF or the DOJ decided not to include Mexico in the operation (or even tell Mexico about it) smells bad.
    The fact that ATF agents were told to stand down and NOT do anything to track the guns to the border smells bad.
    The fact that Customs was told to let the guns pass through the border smells bad.

    So what was the purpose of this gun-walking operation? It sure gives some credence to the belief that somebody wanted to supply Mexican cartels with guns.
    Why?

    There are some who think an increase in crimes and murders in Mexico and in the US would raise an anti-gun movement in the US.

    Can anyone come up with some other reason as to why the ATV and the DOJ provided over 2,000 illegal guns to the Mexican cartels? The guns included AK47s , sniper rifles, and 50 caliber rifles. It sounds like the US was outfitting a small army. Why?

    Helen

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    There are some who think an increase in crimes and murders in Mexico and in the US would raise an anti-gun movement in the US.
    Remember when Hillary implied that it was US guns that were arming the cartels? I wonder if that was before F&F was begun?
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  8. #8
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    Do you know when Hillary implied that it was US guns that were arming the cartels?

    F & F Timeline:

    Oct. 2009 a teleconference meeting was held among the DEA, the ATF, and the DOJ discussing what to do about the Mexican cartels. It has been reported that gun-walking was not a tactic mentioned in this meeting. I have not found any mention on the net as to what specific tactics were suggested during the meeting.

    Nov 2009 the Operation Fast & Furious was begun by the ATF... operating out of their Phoenix, AZ, office.

    Within months as the amount of guns being sold (but not tracked) grew, ATF agents in AZ and in Mexico complained that the operation was not working right because the guns were not being tracked, the straw buyers were not being arrested, and the guns were being used in crimes on both sides of the borders . The complaining ATF agents were apparently told to shut up and go along with the operation. Even the AZ gun shop owners who the ATF rounded up to sell the guns to straw buyers started complaining.

    I do not understand how AG Eric Holder could state that the DOJ did not know about the operation when superiors in DOJ were participants in the October 2009 meeting, ATF Chief Melson knew about it from the get go and received reports about it. ATF Chief Melson operates under and with the DOJ. This operation needed funding. Over 2,000 AK47s, sniper rifles, and 50 cailber rifles cost some big $$$ and they were illegal. The government provided the guns to the gun shop owners who had to sell them. In order to get funding, the DOJ would have to approve Fast & Furious.

    Helen
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-4893905-503543.htmlThe


    WH was taking this position (U.S. guns going to drug cartels) in March 2009! Just two months after Obama took office. Did the F&F "plan" start taking shape even then?

    Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, on a visit to Mexico, said Wednesday that America's inability to prevent weapons being smuggled across the border is causing the deaths of Mexican police officers, soldiers and civilians. (Read a full report on Clinton's visit.)

    Now, the ATF is about to get some reinforcements under an initiative announced this week by the Obama administration. The money will help track down who is buying these weapons and from whom.

    "We know for a fact that a lot of the weapons are coming from firearms dealers," Golson said. "They're coming from gun shows and flea markets." Often, he says, private collectors are selling their weapons because "they don't have the same restrictions." (But F&F just used the gun dealers.)

    Complicating things for ATF agents, the weapons often change hands before crossing the border. After which they can fetch a hefty profit. (They already knew this, so why didn't F&F have a provision for tracking the guns?)
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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    Senior Member gmhr1's Avatar
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    A large group of dems are walking out in protest of contempt vote can't they just seek the truth. If holder or obama is involved than so be it....if you see what docs they are asking for it sure looks bad for both.
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