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Proven Chessie Studs?

35K views 168 replies 43 participants last post by  Scott R. 
#1 · (Edited)
Looking to have my 3yo HRCH Bitch bred and trying to do all of my homework and cover all the bases as to what all is out there stud wise in the Chessie World. Within the next week or two I hope to have all her test and health clearances taken care of and hopefully I'll be ready to get a breeding lined up. So for all you chessie people what all is out there as far as PROVEN studs? I'm new to breeding so just trying to be thorough. Any suggestions? BTW I am not opposed to driving or AI. Thanks
 
#35 ·
DM status is one of those things you need to know....but basing breeding decisions on that alone is short-sighted. While it needs to be on the radar, it's easy enough to breed around. As for the pedigree on the bitch, one of the things I like about the breed is that you've got a pretty good shot at a good all-around dog with pretty much any lines with a solid history of health clearances on hips, CERF, PRA, elbows. The bitch having an HRCH is certainly a plus, and a mating to a DM clear stud should give you a nice litter of pups. And depending on what stud you use, the price point for the pups should start at around 1000. Around here, a $600 Chessie pup is a backyard breeder/newspaper puppy with no titles and maybe hips and eyes at best for health clearances.
 
#99 ·
Now this is sound advice. If you can find a quality Chessie male with the right health clearances and get do a natural breeding that is what I would do. You will produce quality companion and hunting dogs that also will be likely able to do hunt tests with that Caroway line. Also Rudy was a great dog. I recently bred to a Blaze son, with Blaze being out of Rudy. Tempertment of the pups was the best I've bred. Field drive galore. Any quality pup now is selling for minimum $800.
 
#40 · (Edited)
No, T. I would not breed an at risk to a carrier. It is irresponsible breeding IMO. Sure, if people aren't educated they'll buy the pups because they don't know any better.

If I had a high level, very special dog..... Something above a MH x JH/SH breeding, I would think "if" I had years and years of experience breeding and running dogs like a few people who we all know, I would say breeding a dog which was a carrier x carrier or even carrier x at risk "MIGHT" be acceptable. I say this with a very strong feeling that the person doing the breeding would need to have years of experience with the dogs and years of field trial success to know that what he/she might be breeding was "that special" and needed to be bred to contribute to the gene pool.

There are way too many MH /SH dogs which are clear or only carriers to use as a stud than chance breeding any at-risk dogs x carrier dogs. I don't think that is responsible.
 
#44 ·
No, T. I would not breed an at risk to a carrier. It is irresponsible breeding IMO. Sure, if people aren't educated they'll buy the pups because they don't know any better.

If I had a high level, very special dog..... Something above a MH x JH/SH breeding, I would think "if" I had years and years of experience breeding and running dogs like a few people who we all know, I would say breeding a dog which was a carrier x carrier or even carrier x at risk "MIGHT" be acceptable. I say this with a very strong feeling that the person doing the breeding would need to have years of experience with the dogs and years of field trial success to know that what he/she might be breeding was "that special" and needed to be bred to contribute to the gene pool.

There are way too many MH /SH dogs which are clear or only carriers to use as a stud than chance breeding any at-risk dogs x carrier dogs. I don't think that is responsible.
I agree that breeding an affected, (lets call it what it is shall we), to a carrier or a carrier to carrier would be all right if the breeder really knew their dogs and were willing to cull the affecteds. To do anything else is irresponsible.

I attempted to do a carrier x carrier breeding sometime ago, knowing darn well that was what I was going to have to do. It didn't take thank goodness. I now know I don't have the stomach for such things. But I will NOT condemn someone who does do this type of breeding.

Angie
 
#50 · (Edited)
The DM research paper by Dr. Bell states "it is obvious that the vast majority of "At-risk" dogs will not develop DM".

50% decline in breed registrations over the last 10 years.
60-65% of tested dogs are carrier or at-risk
There is no test for temperament.
Hip dysplasia occurs in the breed at twenty-something%
All dogs will die of something. I had to put a dog down last year from cancer. She may have been at-risk, who knows. It is unfortunate when any dog dies.
None of us are "pro-DM"

So, knowing this, how could anyone condemn someone for doing a carrier to carrier breeding. Regardless of pedigree, titles, etc.

The people above my pay grade will also talk about dillution of the gene pool via popular stud effect.

Just to be clear, in this hypothetical breeding, each pup has a 25% chance of being at-risk for a disease that usually does not affect the dog until it is 7. And most at-risk dogs will not have DM. Yet, some still need to condemn others for this? If it is not something you would like to do, fine. If you want to only buy a clear pup, fine. But I think the moral high-ground being claimed here is shaky at best. Let's stay together, and not become split. Unfortunately, I think that toothpaste is already out of the tube.

Let's support each others right to breed our dogs as we see fit. If you don't like my breeding choices, move on. I just don't see the need to condemn others.

Damon Sweep
 
#56 ·
But no one knows which ones will and which ones won't.. That's the kicker and myself as a breeder I won't take that risk. Look at it this way... How can I tell a family that their puppy will not show a symptom of the disease?? I can't... So I won't sell or give an affected/at risk puppy to anyone. Even if they knew what they were getting into. No breeding is worth that in my opinion.

Respectfully,,, ;)

Angie
 
#58 · (Edited)
Obviously it's a touchy subject with some, because as pointed out, not all "at risk" dogs will develop DM. Certainly there are occasional pairings of Chesapeakes of exceptional pedigree and merit that may produce at risk puppies that are worth that risk; it's a matter of the breeder's comfort level in producing such breedings. ON the flip side of the coin, and what most people have a big problem with, are repeated and reckless breedings of ordinary dogs producing multiple litters of DM-affected dogs at a time when most responsible breeders seek to reduce the incidence of the disease. And bragging about producing dozens of at risk puppies no matter what they sell for is just plain boorish.

Edited to add that there has been ONE instance of a carrier dog diagnosed with DM, and that was a different form of the disease than the one that's been studied.
 
#59 ·
I rather have a DM at risk that looks and performs like a real Chesapeake then a mexican hairless Weimaraner. Hows that for Boorish?????????????????
 
#60 ·
Ok this is not what i was looking for when starting this thread.... I was simply looking for the who's who on the stud market. It's obvious many of us have different opinoins on DM testing and what is acceptable breeding-wise. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and theres no need to attack anyone based on theirs. I have recieved some really good PM's with helpful advice and some good suggestions for those I say Thank You.
 
#65 ·
Okay guys chill!

FOM
RTF Moderator
 
#72 ·
Carriers have not come down with DM. The study mentioned a mutation of DM in another breed. Stop that Nick. Chessie owners stop this nonsense. Some people will never be convinced all that is necessary is that we are informed and make our own decisions. More chessies need to be run in field trials and hunt tests.
 
#78 ·
The hard part about DM is that 1) there is more than one form (but one specific form that manifests most often in Chessies); and 2) it is a polygenic disease like hip dysplasia, meaning it takes multiple genes to manifest and so far there is only one common gene identified...which is not enough information to say that "At Risk" is the same as "Affected", like with EIC. Additionally, it is present in several other breeds, including one breed in particular that has a very high percentage of dogs testing "At Risk", yet there has never been a documented case of DM actually occurring in that breed.
So with the available information, the recommendation from OFA is to look hard at the immediate ancestors of dogs testing at risk when making breeding decisions. If there have been deaths from DM, that increases the chances of a dog testing "At Risk" actually developing the disease. They also recommend not discarding dogs from breeding programs based strictly on their DM status alone...other health clearances and traits need to be considered too.
 
#81 ·
Once again there was not a chessie that came down with DM I read the same article. Sharon it is wire hair terriers that have not come down with DM which is incorrect. If I knew how to post a video I would show you DM in a wirehair terrier. Nick I really don't want to argue about this but I read the same article Lisa read. In fact I posted it sometime back. I have witnessed DM and I want no part of it. It is heartbreaking when it's your dog. Nick hold your tongue on this topic you have two dogs maybe a third that are at risk your playing the odds and I hope you win. Also, prayer for Gracie hope she is okay keep me posted.
 
#84 ·
I undo what the beaver just did...should help a little..
 
#87 ·
The form of DM that has been extensively studied, that has a higher incidence in CBRs among other breeds, is not the same form that was diagnosed in the carrier CBR that was diagnosed port mortem. I read the same article. There is a lot more that needs to be learned about the disease and I happen to be one that believes there are certain instances where a breeding that might produce more affecteds might be worth doing. Would I do it myself? I'm not sure, as I haven't been faced with a breeding decision on a pairing I really liked where it could happen, but it's not up to me to judge what someone else chooses to do since there is more to consider in potential breedings than just DM status. However, to recklessly breed and produce potentially hundreds of puppies at risk for something easily avoided (whether DM, hip dysplasia or blindness) is just plain irresponsible. We in the relatively small retrieving community are better equipped to make decisions on carriers and breedings that might produce more at risk/affected dogs, but remember not all puppies end up in the hands of educated people thus the potential to spread these deleterious genes is exponential.
 
#90 ·
Usually, most people consider a proven stud to have a title above "couch warming biscuit snacker" and have offspring in a competitive venue. To some, proven just means means having sperm that swim and attach to an egg.
 
#91 ·
Look at the Ama Nationals that were just run and see how many were sired by the same stud dog. THAT IS A PROVEN STUD. THE DOG THAT WON WAS SIRED BY GRADY AND GRADY WAS A FINALIST. I GUESS I SHOULD GET A GRADY PUPPY. WON'T HAPPEN THIS YEAR.
 
#94 · (Edited)
This may be true for Some, but to those that show proven may be something else. The people that want a good hunting dog and don't do test or trials do not even know what it takes so not sure it is that important to them either. To the ones that aspire to have an AFC or FC or be competitive in field trials it is probably a good definition. Chris and I think "Larry" is proven in are eyes. He with "Deuce" and me with "Katie" could not be happier.
 
#93 ·
naw, Mikes got Grady bitch x Murray Chesadore's in the works.. They'll sell for around $3,000 at the Jersey pet shops...
 
#95 ·
I'm kinda glad I jumped out of this conversation on page 2. I will say, after my dog won a blue, finished a couple for greenies and did ok in his only Am, the phone started ringing. After informing the inquiries of him being a DM carrier, the phone stopped ringing. What a shame. 42 marks in HT's this spring and not a even a safety handle. So much for improving the breed. Might be time to go over to the dark side and just blend in with the crowd.
 
#96 ·
I know what you mean. Thor has every health clearance, MH, 3rd in a Q, 5 titled offspring 1 is a MH and has been doing pretty good in Q's and 2 more running master this year. He has 1000's of retrieves hunting too and a great temperment. He has won ribbons in everything from dock dogs to dog shows. But some people are turned off because he is at risk. He is 7 years old and still competing and hunting. I have some frozen seman on him so I will be breeding back to him down the road.
 
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