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Thread: If you have a business, you didn't build that

  1. #101
    Senior Member coachmo's Avatar
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    Sambo once again you make generalizations that are not accurate. The majority of kids are not lazy, LAZY kids are LAZY!! Now here's a generalization for you, I would imagine most of the voting aged, lazy kids voted for your man obama! I have 3 daughters; one is an RN working on becoming a nurse practitioner, one is working on her MBA and the.youngest is working on her bachelors degree. You making such asinine statements is kinda like me saying all liberals must be stupid for voting for and supporting obama. There are plenty of hard working young people out there. Thank God for them.
    Last edited by coachmo; 07-21-2012 at 02:24 PM.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Uncle Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    If you read it in context, you know what he was saying. So I won't insult your intelligence and try and explain it to you, except to say that he was actually making a patriotic statement and your guys are taking him out of context to make it into something that it wasn't. Faux is TERRIBLE for America. They are despicable.

    Quite the contrary, "BUZZ"...you and your batch of fools is what's 'despicable' for America. God help your offspring if your ilk succeeds in giving this total phoney and his regime another 4 years.

    UB

    The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but the citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the presidency.

    It will be easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency, than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to an electorate willing to have such a man for their president.

    The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails us.

    Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.

    The republic can survive a Barack Obama. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those that made him their President.
    When the one you love becomes a memory, that memory becomes a treasure.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Buzz
    If you read it in context, you know what he was saying. So I won't insult your intelligence and try and explain it to you, except to say that he was actually making a patriotic statement and your guys are taking him out of context to make it into something that it wasn't. Faux is TERRIBLE for America. They are despicable.
    Reading the entire context in a few different places, I do not believe he was being patriotic at all. He was pandering to an audience that would like to believe that somehow they could take credit for the success of those businesses; or the "government" could take credit.

    The point that was not made was that each of them (his listeners) had the same taxes-paid-for public services available to them that could have made them the highly successful individuals ... because they are just as smart & just as hard-working (by his own words) ... but somehow those people listening had not done so. Why? Any, and all, have access to those services that help a business succeed. Only some have the ideas, the motivation, the passion, the ambition, the courage, & the determination to invest and risk to succeed.

    I am always struck by the passion of immigrants who have come here with nothing (even today), and sacrifice greatly to become successful. When you hear those people tell their stories, none of them would trade the opportunity they have here for a return to life in their home countries. We ought to listen carefully to those who have left oppressive homelands to strive and thrive here.

    We're not talking about the huge corporations when we talk of people whose taxable income is $250,000/year (family). Those small business owners having that amount in taxable income are the lifeblood and engine of the country's economy.

    If he were talking about those making $20 or $30 million a year, maybe he'd get my support for the idea, but even then "giving back" is not "giving" when it is "mandatory". Interestingly, those people he says are willing to give more back ... continue to say they won't do so unless the tax man tells them they "must". They could write a check if they wanted to do so from a purely altruistic standpoint. Evidently, their altruism doesn't extend far enough to do this voluntarily.

    The only response I've ever seen to this is, "Why should I, if I don't have to?" If they think it's the right thing to do, why not?

    And isn't the discussion of taxing "the rich" kind of academic, since it won't do much at all to help assuage the huge deficit. (I'd fully expect that the politicians will not even use it to pay off debt, but find new ways to spend the new revenue, and probably spend it ineffectively.) However, hammering this point is a very effective way to establish class warfare and divisiveness.
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  4. #104
    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    The less the Federal Government gets involved in, the better for all American! Maybe everyone including our politicains should read The Constitution. It would be a real eye-opener.

    Can anyone name anything the government has done that runs is an effective & efficient manner other than our military?

    And, don't forget that the government does NOT create wealth or success, they consume it! Anything the government tries to do, the private sector can do much better!

    I like that.

    Public School - provided by the taxpayers of the community - the government only acted as collector & disbursor!

    State school - again provided by the taxpayers - BS in Engineering
    Both my kids, BS in Engineering-one at a state school and one private. No student loans! At that time single parent. I saved all monetary gifts from the time they were born and paid for 3 years of college. The last year paid by a generous grandparent.

    I built my business with no government loans. I'm sure I am a drop in the bucket of all the taxpayers that never accepted the government dole that are now royally pissed off with Obamas blather and story telling.

    He only wants to think that the money should be spread around to 3 generations that were on the dole because we all owe the government, meanwhile the government takes it's share.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member Uncle Bill's Avatar
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    FWIW...an article correcting another prevarication by the messiah.

    UB

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...008406518.html
    When the one you love becomes a memory, that memory becomes a treasure.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bill View Post
    FWIW...an article correcting another prevarication by the messiah.

    UB

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...008406518.html


    What a surprise, a Murdoch rag trying to rival Faux for BS inaccuracy.

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...-the-internet/


    "It's an urban legend that the government launched the Internet," writes L. Gordon Crovitz in Monday's Wall Street Journal, launching into just one of a myriad of problems with his short opinion piece.While he concedes that the military's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) program funded the creation of the ARPAnet, the first large-scale packet-switched network, he argues that the government doesn't deserve credit for the creation of the Internet:
    If the government didn't invent the Internet, who did? Vinton Cerf developed the TCP/IP protocol, the Internet's backbone, and Tim Berners-Lee gets credit for hyperlinks.
    But full credit goes to the company where [Robert Taylor] worked after leaving ARPA: Xerox. It was at the Xerox PARC labs in Silicon Valley in the 1970s that the Ethernet was developed to link different computer networks. Researchers there also developed the first personal computer (the Xerox Alto) and the graphical user interface that still drives computer usage today.
    Crovitz is right that Vinton Cerf, along with Bob Kahn, invented the TCP/IP protocol that is the foundation of the modern Internet. But he neglects to mention that Cerf's early work on the protocol was funded by the US military through its DARPA program.
    "Hyperlinks" are not the Internet, and Tim Berners-Lee didn't invent them. Nor is the World Wide Web the Internet, although the Web has become such a popular Internet application that many people confuse the two. But more to the point, Berners-Lee was working at CERN, a research organization funded by European governments, when he invented the World Wide Web in the early 1990s.
    Xerox is indeed a private company, and Xerox PARC researchers did develop some important computing technologies, including Ethernet and the graphical user interface. But it's not accurate to say that "the Ethernet was developed to link different computer networks." Ethernet was designed primarily as a local networking technology to connect computers in a home or office. The point of the Internet's TCP/IP protocol was to allow networks using different standards, including Ethernet, to communicate with each other. Many of the networks that now comprise the Internet use the Ethernet protocol, but what makes the Internet the Internet is TCP/IP, not Ethernet.
    Indeed, not only is Crovitz confused about the origins of the Internet, he also seems not to understand the conventions of the World Wide Web. He quotes George Mason University economist Tyler Cowen as saying that "The Internet, in fact, reaffirms the basic free market critique of large government." But that quote wasn't written by Cowen. It was quoted by Cowen in a 2005 blog post.The page Cowen was quoting has succumbed to bitrot, but the Internet Archive has a copy.
    The Wall Street Journal has earned a reputation for producing in-depth and meticulously fact-checked news coverage. Unfortunately, it doesn't always apply that same high standard of quality to their editorial page.
    http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise...erox-internet/

    Xerox: Uh, We Didn’t Invent the Internet


    Who invented the internet?
    Wall Street Journal columnist L. Gordon Crovitz took a stab at this question on Monday and settled on Xerox — the copier company whose research and development group, Xerox PARC, invented just about everything people like about the personal computer.
    The columnist took exception to Barack Obama’s recent claim that the internet was actually created by government research.
    Crovitz’s argument? Well, Xerox had to cook up the internet, because it couldn’t wait for those dithering government researchers to make it happen. Xerox hired Robert Taylor, the guy who ran the Department of Defense’s ARPA (Advanced Research Projects Agency) Information Processing Technologies program in the 1960s to run Xerox PARC’s computer lab.
    “If the government didn’t invent the Internet, who did?” Crovitz writes, adding: “Full credit goes to the company where Mr. Taylor worked after leaving ARPA: Xerox.”
    Xerox maintains a decade-by-decade list of its technological accomplishments on its website. And while it’s eager to take credit for Ethernet, the graphical user interface, and the PC, Xerox doesn’t take credit for the internet.
    Why not? “Robert Metcalfe, researcher at PARC, invented Ethernet as a way to connect Xerox printers and the Alto computer,” Xerox spokesman Bill McKee said on Monday. “But inventing Ethernet is not the same as inventing the internet.”
    In other words, don’t confuse a network of computers with the birthplace of TCP/IP and lolcats.
    To be fair, Xerox invented a lot more than just Ethernet. And many of the things that came out of Xerox — the PC and the graphical user interface — were crucial to the internet as we know it today, according to Robert Taylor, who we interviewed Monday.
    To hear Taylor tell it, finding the inventor of the internet is a bit like finding the inventor of the blues. It’s origins are murky and complex.
    “The origins of the internet include work both sponsored by the government and Xerox PARC, so you can’t say that the internet was invented by either one alone,” he says.
    So would the internet have been invented without the government? “That’s a tough question,” he says. “Private industry does not like to start brand new directions in technology. Private industry is conservative by nature. So the ARPAnet probably could not have been built by private industry. It was deemed to be a crazy idea at the time.”
    In fact, Taylor says, the two biggest computer and telecommunications companies back in the 1960s were pretty hostile to two of the big ideas behind the internet: time-sharing computing (IBM liked batch processing) and packet switching (AT&T liked circuit switching).
    “Both AT&T and IBM were invited to join the ARPAnet and they both refused,” he says.
    Michael Hiltzik, the LA Times journalist who wrote the definitive biography of Xerox PARC, Dealers of Lightning, provides a definitive debunking of Crovitz’s argument here
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    And so on...



    http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,5052169.story


    So, who really did invent the Internet?


    By Michael HiltzikJuly 23, 2012, 8:32 a.m.


    Gordon Crovitz of the Wall Street Journal's editorial page reopens the ancient debate over who invented the Internet with a column Monday calling out the notion that it was the government as an "urban legend."
    And while I'm gratified in a sense that he cites my book about Xerox PARC, "Dealers of Lightning," to support his case, it's my duty to point out that he's wrong. My book bolsters, not contradicts, the argument that the Internet had its roots in the ARPANet, a government project. So let's look at where Crovitz goes awry.
    First, he quotes Robert Taylor, who funded the ARPANet as a top official at the Pentagon's Advanced Research Projects Agency, or ARPA, as stating, "The Arpanet was not an Internet. An Internet is a connection between two or more computer networks." (Taylor eventually moved to Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center, where he oversaw the invention of the personal computer, and continued promoting research into networking.)
    But Crovitz confuses AN internet with THE Internet. Taylor was citing a technical definition of "internet" in his statement. But I know Bob Taylor, Bob Taylor is a friend of mine, and I think I can say without fear of contradiction that he fully endorses the idea as a point of personal pride that the government-funded ARPANet was very much the precursor of the Internet as we know it today. Nor was ARPA's support "modest," as Crovitz contends. It was full-throated and total. Bob Taylor was the single most important figure in the history of the Internet, and he holds that stature because of his government role.
    Crovitz then points out that TCP/IP, the fundamental communications protocol of the Internet, was invented by Vinton Cerf (though he fails to mention Cerf's partner, Robert Kahn). He points out that Tim Berners-Lee "gets credit for hyperlinks."
    Lots of problems here. Cerf and Kahn did develop TCP/IP--on a government contract! And Berners-Lee doesn't get credit for hyperlinks--that belongs to Doug Engelbart of Stanford Research Institute, who showed them off in a legendary 1968 demo you can see here. Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web--and he did so at CERN, a European government consortium.
    Cerf, by the way, wrote in 2009 that the ARPANet, on which he worked, "led, ultimately, to the Internet."
    As for Ethernet, which Bob Metcalfe and David Boggs invented at PARC (under Taylor's watchful eye), that's by no means a precursor of the Internet, as Crovitz contends. It was, and is, a protocol for interconnecting computers and linking them to outside networks--such as the Internet. And Metcalfe drew his inspiration for the technology from ALOHANet, an ARPA-funded project at the University of Hawaii.
    So the bottom line is that the Internet as we know it was indeed born as a government project. In fact, without ARPA and Bob Taylor, it could not have come into existence. Private enterprise had no interest in something so visionary and complex, with questionable commercial opportunities. Indeed, the private corporation that then owned monopoly control over America's communications network, AT&T, fought tooth and nail against the ARPANet. Luckily for us, a far-sighted government agency prevailed.
    It's true that the Internet took off after it was privatized in 1995. But to be privatized, first you have to be government-owned. It's another testament to people often demeaned as "government bureaucrats" that they saw that the moment had come to set their child free.


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  8. #108
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Another article stating that Crovitz is FOS.

    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...-the-internet/


    It is really telling that Romeny needed to resort to a lie and misquote Obama to make up one of his main points of attack against him.

    Yes, Government Researchers Really Did Invent the Internet

    By Michael Moyer | July 23, 2012 | 13

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    “It’s an urban legend that the government launched the Internet,” writes Gordon Crovitz in an opinion piece in today’s Wall Street Journal. Most histories cite the Pentagon-backed ARPANet as the Internet’s immediate predecessor, but that view undersells the importance of research conducted at Xerox PARC labs in the 1970s, claims Crovitz. In fact, Crovitz implies that, if anything, government intervention gummed up the natural process of laissez faire innovation. “The Internet was fully privatized in 1995,” says Crovitz, “just as the commercial Web began to boom.” The implication is clear: the Internet could only become the world-changing force it is today once big government got out of the way.
    But Crovitz’s story is based on a profound misunderstanding of not only history, but technology. Most egregiously, Crovitz seems to confuse the Internet—at heart, a set of protocols designed to allow far-flung computer networks to communicate with one another—with Ethernet, a protocol for connecting nearby computers into a local network. (Robert Metcalfe, a researcher at Xerox PARC who co-invented the Ethernet protocol, today tweeted tongue-in-cheek “Is it possible I invented the whole damn Internet?”)
    The most important part of what we now know of as the Internet is the TCP/IP protocol, which was invented by Vincent Cerf and Robert Kahn. Crovitz mentions TCP/IP, but only in passing, calling it (correctly) “the Internet’s backbone.” He fails to mention that Cerf and Kahn developed TCP/IP while working on a government grant.
    Other commenters, including Timothy B. Lee at Ars Technica and veteran technology reporter Steve Wildstrom, have noted that Crovitz’s misunderstandings run deep. He also manages to confuse the World Wide Web (incidentally, invented by Tim Berners Lee while working at CERN, a government-funded research laboratory) with hyperlinks, and an internet—a link between two computers—with THE Internet.
    But perhaps the most damning rebuttal comes from Michael Hiltzik, the author “Dealers of Lightning,” a history of Xerox PARC that Crovitz uses as his main source for material. “While I’m gratified in a sense that he cites my book,” writes Hiltzik, “it’s my duty to point out that he’s wrong. My book bolsters, not contradicts, the argument that the Internet had its roots in the ARPANet, a government project.”
    In truth, no private company would have been capable of developing a project like the Internet, which required years of R&D efforts spread out over scores of far-flung agencies, and which began to take off only after decades of investment. Visionary infrastructure projects such as this are part of what has allowed our economy to grow so much in the past century. Today’s op-ed is just one sad indicator of how we seem to be losing our appetite for this kind of ambition.



    About the Author: Michael Moyer is the editor in charge of technology coverage at Scientific American. Follow on Twitter @mmoyr.
    Last edited by Buzz; 07-24-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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  9. #109
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Another article stating that Crovitz is FOS.

    It is really telling that Romeny needed to resort to a lie and misquote Obama to make up one of his main points of attack against him.
    To what "lie" are you referring, and where did Romney "misquote" Obama? I have to say that although I really don't like Uncle Bill's name calling I find your specious attacks pretty unconvincing also. Romney didn't write the article to which you refer and there is no reason to believe that he had anything to do with it.
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  10. #110
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    To what "lie" are you referring, and where did Romney "misquote" Obama? I have to say that although I really don't like Uncle Bill's name calling I find your specious attacks pretty unconvincing also. Romney didn't write the article to which you refer and there is no reason to believe that he had anything to do with it.

    The lie is that Obama said that business owners didn't create their business. Everyone with an open mind should know by now that he said that the small businessman didn't put all the infrastructure in place that the small business depends on. This the government didn't invent the internet was just done to discredit Obama further with his statement (in the speech that he was misquoted from) that government research was responsible for the internet.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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