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Thread: Blind Retrieve - Newbie Question

  1. #11
    Senior Member Jerry S.'s Avatar
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    I'd like to know how many people teach "sit" before "here."

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Depending on how devoted you may be to short cut methods as opposed to giving your dog a break in this process by being systematic and thorough. Any working retriever will do better, and be more reliable with a full set of Basics on board. Here's what that looks like. The choice is yours.


    The components of Basics in order


    1) “Here”
    2) “Heel & Sit”
    3) “Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
    4) “Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
    5) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
    6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
    7) Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
    8) Single tee
    9) Double tee
    10) Water force, Water tee with Swim-by

    Let me know if I can be of help.

    Evan

  2. #12
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchm View Post
    I'd like to know how many people teach "sit" before "here."
    Why? Is that a major issue?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  3. #13
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    I'd like to know how many people teach "sit" before "here."
    Me, once they'll sit; I teach come. Both commands for a treat at about 9 weeks old.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  4. #14
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    "Sit" is the first command I teach also. Just seems logical

  5. #15
    Senior Member Jerry S.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Why? Is that a major issue?

    Evan
    No, not at all. However a dog that sits first is easier to teach the subsequent commands in most flowcharts, including yours.
    I will have my pups whistle sitting before a "here" command is even given. To me, those commands are more important for the life of a dog than a "here" command, IMHO.
    I would also like to know how many people, other than Smartwork dog people, teach a "here" command the way you teach with the ropes.
    No offense Evan. However there are always ways to do things differently, and perhaps better.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchm View Post
    No, not at all. However a dog that sits first is easier to teach the subsequent commands in most flowcharts, including yours.
    Every trainer is entitled to his or her opinion. That's fine. I did it that way for years, and decided "Here" was a more logical first command. You're right, it's not a big deal; just a preference. But, from my Flow Chart:

    Formalizing Obedience

    Here, Heel & Sit with 2-sided heeling, Remote Sit, Kennel (That's my preferred chronology)
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchm View Post
    I will have my pups whistle sitting before a "here" command is even given. To me, those commands are more important for the life of a dog than a "here" command, IMHO
    To each his own. I think being able to call a dog out of trouble is more likely to save him from it than sitting him in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchm View Post
    I would also like to know how many people, other than Smartwork dog people, teach a "here" command the way you teach with the ropes.
    No offense Evan. However there are always ways to do things differently, and perhaps better.
    I agree; it's possible. But it's a fairly small thing, even for a preference. No offense taken.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

  7. #17
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchm View Post
    I'd like to know how many people teach "sit" before "here."
    Under Hillmann's approach, a very solid and reliable standard of "Sit" is achieved before introduction of the "Here" command. The reasoning has to do with eliminating all anticipation of release from the sit until the pup has established a significant understanding of a motionless sit.

    I believe that this prerequisite applies to more than just the "Here" command. Chase activity, a key element of Hillmann's preliminary to retrieving and marking, is never initiated from a commanded "Sit" until this same minimum standard of a motionless, focused "Sit" is attained.

    The result is a steady retriever. That is ... a dog that has a clear understanding of sitting motionless while focused on the excitement of guns and birds in the field until released by command. All done without physical restraint because the dog learns what "Sit" means before it is ever tempted to break from a "Sit".

    Jim

  8. #18
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Kigiin,

    To cut to the chase, I was in your position three years ago. Tried to start training for blinds using random tips from random books. Didn't work.

    Here is the recommended method of Mike Lardy and I think Evan Graham, but he can speak for himself: "simple casting drills" then "Pile Work"

    Simple casting is fun and teaches dog to go "back" and left or right on command. It's an important step. Dog will need direction if you send him for a blind and he doesn't go perfectly straight. So look up a simple casting or baseball drill and do it for a week or two til dog is solid on going where you send him. In Summary, Dog is sitting at pitcher's mound, you are at batter's plate and you have bumpers at 1st, 2nd and 3rd. You teach one base at a time, then combine them. In Sending to second base, you throw your arm straight up and say "back".

    Then Pile Work: This really drives it home to the dog on what "back" means. It also teaches the dog to be sent from your side for an un-thrown bumper. It builds confidence that something is out there and it allows you to start training the whistle sit while going for a retrieve.

    1. Get 5-9 white bumpers. Take dog out to short grass area, sit dog and let him watch you throw out all but one of the bumpers to a tightly scattered pile.

    2. Walk dog away from pile so you're both 20 feet away from it. Have dog at heel, throw last bumper to pile. Send dog to pile for a retrieve.

    3.Dog comes back, have him sit facing you and send him back to pile using your arm signal and "Back". As dog is leaving, walk backwards several feet to extend the distance. Repeat til all bumpers are picked up. Don't back up farther than 40 - 50 yards and don't back up too far on the first day. You want to build confidence.

    4. Day 2 = Repeat of day one. But on the third bumper, put dog at the heel position so he's by your side and looking out to pile. Send him from the heel position by saying "back". Then mix it up. Send him from front position as well as from heel.

    This is the beginning, you can look up the rest. Check out Mike Lardy's web site called Total Retriever Training to order his articles or check out Evan's site or whoever else. These guys teach with a systematic method of force, but You can do these steps without using force, the e collar or the stick. You can just read and understand the drills, then teach them to your dog. Or, if you want to use the force system, buy a program with DVDs and books and make sure you understand exactly what you're doing before strapping on the collar or using the stick.

    Disclaimer: I'm a newb, too and learned the hard way that you can't really be a casual trainer. Have to follow the steps so your dog builds confidence and understands the small steps that lead to the big picture.

  9. #19
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with Evan's approach. And why is sit more logical as a first command?
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  10. #20
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    Default Excellent!

    Jennifer, I would like to thank you for that post. Very informative, but I am wondering if you (or anybody else who reads this) can set me in the right direction to find a training program thAt doesn't neccesarily harp on initial house training and obedience, but handles from very basic retrieving through FF and then castin. Any advice is welcomed!

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