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Thread: Tax dodger wants in the whitehouse

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    These are the excuses used everytime this argument comes up. Charter schools prove time and time again that it can be done effectively.
    Archiro, I seriously not trying to start a fight, these are real questions that no one (that I have seen) has come up with an answer to. MN has been trying different plans for years now, the last one I remember was Q-comp, and it hasn't addressed any of these issues because they are unable to. If you know of even one school that has implemented what you consider a fair incentive pay, I would love to read it.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    1) Have successful teachers come up with the plan. Seems simple, doesn't it? Not the administrators, or the academics. The good teachers.

    2) Ask the kids. Kids seem to have an uncanny ability to pick out good teachers, I think. I remember that the good teachers I had over the years were not considered the "easy" teachers. They were respected and, actually, also well-liked. Kids wanted to be in their classes. Very much the same in college. They had a knack for requiring "obedience" from students in class, but also knowing how/when they could give more "space". Seems like many of the qualities one sees in effective leaders.

    3) I don't think that testing the kids with standardized tests is so bad. Before you can become a rocket scientist you must learn about arithmetic! Not just 1 + 1 = 2, but how and why. Calculators cannot teach you that. But it is very handy to be able to learn the basics by rote ... the times tables, valences in chemistry, the theorems in geometry. I still think geometry is one of the best tools for learning how to "think" logically.

    4) Put cameras in the classrooms to watch teacher/student dynamics. The cameras would be turned on all the time, but they would be "monitored" randomly. No teacher would know when their classroom was being observed ... so their performance would have to be uniform.

    5) In truth, sometimes a good teacher was a poor student; a student who was "bored" n class or had to "work" at getting good or passing grades. Those teachers maybe understand how the students' minds are working, and can offer more creative ways of presenting course material.

    There are many different kinds/styles of good teachers ... the results they get can show up in two ways: student performance on standardized testing and students' enthusiasm for the course material or learning process.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  3. #183
    Senior Member duckheads's Avatar
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    Unfortunately Gerry the Union won't allow most of your points unless you have an administration willing to fight the Union during their next contract negotiations.

    Thanks to Mitch Daniels and his administration Indiana now has open enrollment which means your kids can go to any school as long as the school is not at capacity and you can provide transportation for them. This is the second year we are at a new school for all three kids. The school we left has the highest paid teachers in the county yet the school is on academic probation which is the lowest possible designation before the state takes the school over. The new school is an Academic Excellent school for the past five years which is the highest designation for schools. Both schools are K-12 schools all in one building. The difference is the school we left is all about the teachers. The new school is all about the kids. There is no comparison. At the old school the principle had to give the teacher notice a day ahead of time before he could observe in the classroom. That is in the contract. They couldn't fire a music teacher because he had tenure. The kids didn't like him as he was a very belligerent teacher. So what did they do, they laid him off which meant that they had to go two years before they could hire another music teacher. No music for two years or make the high school teacher teach K-12 music. Who suffers? The kids and of course the one music teacher if they went that route.

    What is happening is a lot of the smarter kids are leaving for better schools. We didn't have 4 or 5 years for the school to turn around as our oldest daughter was going into the 8th grade. It makes more work for us as parents. We are lucky as my mother in law is able to pick the kids up after school. Not everyone has that option. But in the long run choice and competition are great ways to force schools to get better or they will be gone!
    Last edited by duckheads; 08-28-2012 at 10:01 AM.
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  4. #184
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duckheads View Post
    Unfortunately Gerry the Union won't allow most of your points unless you have an administration willing to fight the Union during their next contract negotiations.

    Thanks to Mitch Daniels and his administration Indiana now has open enrollment which means your kids can go to any school as long as the school is not at capacity and you can provide transportation for them. This is the second year we are at a new school for all three kids. The school we left has the highest paid teachers in the county yet the school is on academic probation which is the lowest possible designation before the state takes the school over. The new school is an Academic Excellent school for the past five years which is the highest designation for schools. Both schools are K-12 schools all in one building. The difference is the school we left is all about the teachers. The new school is all about the kids. There is no comparison. At the old school the principle had to give the teacher notice a day ahead of time before he could observe in the classroom. That is in the contract. They couldn't fire a music teacher because he had tenure. The kids didn't like him as he was a very belligerent teacher. So what did they do, they laid him off which meant that they had to go two years before they could hire another music teacher. No music for two years or make the high school teach K-12 music. Who suffers? The kids and of course the one music teacher if they went that route.

    What is happening is a lot of the smarter kids are leaving for better schools. We didn't have 4 or 5 years for the school to turn around as our oldest daughter was going into the 8th grade. It makes more work for us as parents. We are lucky as my mother in law is able to pick the kids up after school. Not everyone has that option. But in the long run choice and competition are great ways to force schools to get better or they will be gone!
    This is/was the problem in WI.

    DA UNION ran the classrooms, not the Admin, not the teachers, not the kids.......Scott Walker has changed that!!!
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  5. #185
    Senior Member achiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngundog View Post
    Archiro, I seriously not trying to start a fight, these are real questions that no one (that I have seen) has come up with an answer to. MN has been trying different plans for years now, the last one I remember was Q-comp, and it hasn't addressed any of these issues because they are unable to. If you know of even one school that has implemented what you consider a fair incentive pay, I would love to read it.
    The problem really is that you first have to realize that there is no perfect system but you have to do what's best for the kids. If education were run more like a business where the boss(principle) had the power to give bonuses, raises, and fire employees it would make a huge difference. Yes, I realize the flaw in that is that some teachers will be unfairly targeted because of personality issues but they can go to another school just like people in the real world have to find new jobs. If a school isn't cutting it then the boss gets fired.
    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    This is/was the problem in WI.

    DA UNION ran the classrooms, not the Admin, not the teachers, not the kids.......Scott Walker has changed that!!!
    And the unions are why a school can't be run like any other business.
    "The thing I admire about the rat tail is that it takes commitment. It's not like one day you just decide you want one, you have to grow out that bad boy and you have to repeatedly convince the hairdresser to trust you because it's a great idea."

  6. #186
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    I'd vote for a tax dodger over a traitor any day.
    PS not a Romney supporter
    Pete

  7. #187
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    We seem to have strayed a bit from the original post and to get back on track a bit, I would pose this question. Would those of you who are objecting to Romney availing himself of LEGAL means of reducing his tax burden (including donating very generously to charities) think more highly of him if he instead increased his contributions to the government and then reduced his charitable donations by an equal amount?
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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    I won't belabor this but that is the Yes - But comment made to soften the others sides position all too often .

    I think one thing you should know about me..... I don't much care to soften my position with any kind of a "Yes-But".... if there were a BUT in my position, I would say it. I don't pull punches. If you're a teacher, teach to the best of your abilities. If you're a substandard teacher....you need a different line of work. End of story. I am entrusting you with the future of America.... I cannot afford for you to screw it up.



    I don't know about you but I would think that in Wetumka OK, Pop. 1427 or there abouts, & a ways off the beaten path on rte 9, 27 & 78 that those folks are the higher paid individuals in the town @ roughly $40 per hour - it is a part time job

    You have really hit a hot button with me at this point, so this is the last I will post in this regard (good news... you will have the last word here).

    You do not know me. You do not know my town. You can't even read a map properly to see that there is not a HWY 78 anywhere near me.
    This town is at the intersections of Hwy 9 and Hwy 75. You can see all 4 corners of town from that stop sign. We have a phenomenal grocery store, a DairyQueen, and, on Thursday nights, All You Can Eat Catfish at Allie's Cafe. The whole town turns out for every school event (not just sports). We are built on Agriculture, Cattle, and Oil/Gas.

    OUR teachers are not just teachers in this town. NONE of them take it as a part time gig. Here, it takes a village to raise a child. These teachers work over time and get nothing for it other than to see these kids succeed in school. Our Athletic Director is also the Mayor, the Alternative Ed Director/Teacher, and owns a local business. I have never been to ANY school event that he wasn't there. Oh... and his wife is the HS Principal. She never misses either. The Super and his wife are close friends. They know the problems within their system and tackle them daily. Every teacher is required to attend a certain number of school functions, events, and sporting events. Funny thing is....They show up to MORE than what is required! Even the cafeteria workers chaperone dances and put together "backpacks for kids" (our program that sends healthy foods home with kids who qualify). Every teacher has a 'stash' of clothing, food, and supplies for every kid.

    Higher paid individuals in town? Hardly. $40/hour? Are you kidding me??? IF our teachers truly only worked the minimum hours required by the state, THEN for a few that could be true. HOWEVER.... you need to meet our Superintendent, Mr. Jaggs. Minimum state required hours are met by every teacher. And, so are Mr. Jaggs required hours. Which, completely negates your theory of $40/hour. Our district didn't even get their snow days last year because he was ticked off about "average" test scores. (you see, here, we want better than average). Our teachers may grumble a little .... but at the end of the day, they know they are doing what's right.

    In a district that can barely afford to pay attention, much less attract new teachers, he fired 4 teachers at the end of the year. Oops... sorry... He "chose not to renew 4 contracts". Included in that group were.... The band director, a 6th grade teacher, and 2 HS teachers. We had no idea whether or not we could even attract a new band teacher. They dont exactly grow on trees.

    And... FYI.... of those in this town who are employed (not retired).... the higher paid individuals are in oil/gas. DUHH. This is Oklahoma.


    I also take my home county newspaper from SD - the salaries you show would give everyone in that district, at the least, a 40% raise. I have had this discussion many times - including within my own family - I have cousins who avoid me like the plague as I am telling the truth & they are unable to refute it.

    You can drink all the educator Kool Aid you want to - I have the facts & believe them to be correct & the more factual info you post refutes your point - you are paying for the average which means the good teachers carry the deadbeats .
    You have zero facts about my town and couldnt even get it right reading it off of google. I do not disrespect you by pretending to "know facts" about where you are. I expect the same in return.
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  9. #189
    Senior Member menmon's Avatar
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    I grew up in the same town...just by a different name. Thanks for sharing that. It is obvious people there care. It's different in these big cities where a lot of money and power are at stake. Teacher in these big cities need a union....if not, the system will suffer at the expense of bad management by the city officials.

    I'm not saying that the union does not make mistakes, but they are looking out for the interest of the teachers, unlike in your town, the village is looking out for them.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARay11 View Post

    You have zero facts about my town and couldnt even get it right reading it off of google. I do not disrespect you by pretending to "know facts" about where you are. I expect the same in return.
    Actually it's from a AAA map circa 1993 - my post SHR hwy 9, 27 & 75 according to the map - your little town sounds idyllic, but the issue is national not local - you shouldn't argue a national issue from a local perspective, but that's what you have done .

    The oil will eventually run out, what has your little town done to reinvent itself? When my little town's farmers began consolidating & the population decreased, transport improved, it's been a downhill slide.

    As I wrote to the considered for ? Senator John Thune - the state needs to quit exporting it's talent (meaning the intelligent young people going elsewhere) & start adding value to the products it sells. You might ask your friends, Mr & Mrs Do-It-All if that thought ever entered their mind. Keep the young folks home, they are everyone's future.

    You may answer this - Getting the last word is only something you attempt when you don't like the person & you do sound likable .
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