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Thread: Keystone Pipeline Lie

  1. #21
    Senior Member Vammy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    I read that QUOTE of Randy Miller .... Not so says a recent study.

    Here, you should read this. The pipe is from India, Welspun Corp Limited, and from Evraz in Russia and the few jobs it creates are mostly temporary............

    http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallab..._Reportpdf.pdf

    john
    John, with all due respect, that report is full of holes...and does not represent the facts.

    1. What that report does not discuss is the number of jobs that will be created in this country full time, making pumps, valves, associated hardware, transmission systems, and flow controls. These products will be redundant at each pumping station, and will require routine maintenance and replacement.

    Yes, I work in the oil industry. My company, based in Tulsa, manufactures a number of high pressure, high temperature products for the O&G exploration and well completion. Every piece of equipment that comes off our manufacturing floor is made in the USA, including the forged steel castings used for this equipment. No, my company will not directly benefit from Keystone XL...except where we (the US) will now have greater capacity to transport oil from North Dakota (see point 5 below), which should mean more drilling...which is where we sell our products.

    2. Yes, the number of construction workers, surveyors, and engineers building the pipeline will ultimately not be required. They will be replaced by the maintenance personnel, other inspectors, and pump station operators. Those are long term, American jobs.


    3. I take real issue with the report's stance that pipelines result in oilspills; the report cited 2010 as an example. Well, 2010 was not a good year...can anyone say Deepwater Horizon?

    4. The report makes a statement that the pipeline "diverts these tar sand oils from refineries in the mindwest...". Yes, it does. Anyone want to know why? The refineries in the upper midwest cannot handle heavy bituminous oil...it has to go to Texas, where we have established refineries that can handle this type of oil.

    5. Lastly, everyone seems to forget another little oilfield called Bakken Formation. Right now, we cannot transport the oil coming from this field at the rate we could actually produce it...Keystone XL will be able to transport Bakken shale oil to additional refineries in OK and TX.


    For some reason, I cannot link one of the better energy sites on the web; go to PennEnergy.com, and once on their site, search for "keystone pipline XL". There is a wealth of information there, including real and actual jobs this pipeline will create.

    The pipeline is a good thing for America. We need the oil, we need the jobs. We need the pipeline.
    Scott Vermeer

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  2. #22
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    John,

    Right now in Tulsa there are large billboards along every major highway in town with "For Hire" ads by the John Zinc Corp. for welders. John Zinc is a large oil & gas field supplier based here in Tulsa. This current demand for welders probably has nothing to do with the Keystone Project but a mfg. having to take out "Now Hiring" billboards leads me to believe there is a shortage of welders. The local Vo-Tech is constantly advertising their welding courses leading me to believe there is a large demand for welders. It seems to me if the Keystone project is approved then the demand for welders would increase even more and the Vo-Techs would have to gin out even more welders. All newly minted, highly skilled laborers, who would be making a good living and paying taxes. That's a good thing right? Not trying to pick a fight but just giving you the lay of the land here in Oklahoma.

    RD
    Official Launcher of the 2005, 2006,2007,2008,2009 & 2010 HRC Fall & Spring Grand!

  3. #23
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunners Up View Post
    John,

    Right now in Tulsa there are large billboards along every major highway in town with "For Hire" ads by the John Zinc Corp. for welders. John Zinc is a large oil & gas field supplier based here in Tulsa. This current demand for welders probably has nothing to do with the Keystone Project but a mfg. having to take out "Now Hiring" billboards leads me to believe there is a shortage of welders. The local Vo-Tech is constantly advertising their welding courses leading me to believe there is a large demand for welders. It seems to me if the Keystone project is approved then the demand for welders would increase even more and the Vo-Techs would have to gin out even more welders. All newly minted, highly skilled laborers, who would be making a good living and paying taxes. That's a good thing right? Not trying to pick a fight but just giving you the lay of the land here in Oklahoma.

    RD
    Same in TX, AR, ND, SD, LA, AK and everwhere else the oil & gas industry is humming along in spite of the current administration.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunners Up View Post
    John,

    Right now in Tulsa there are large billboards along every major highway in town with "For Hire" ads by the John Zinc Corp. for welders. John Zinc is a large oil & gas field supplier based here in Tulsa. This current demand for welders probably has nothing to do with the Keystone Project but a mfg. having to take out "Now Hiring" billboards leads me to believe there is a shortage of welders. The local Vo-Tech is constantly advertising their welding courses leading me to believe there is a large demand for welders. It seems to me if the Keystone project is approved then the demand for welders would increase even more and the Vo-Techs would have to gin out even more welders. All newly minted, highly skilled laborers, who would be making a good living and paying taxes. That's a good thing right? Not trying to pick a fight but just giving you the lay of the land here in Oklahoma.

    RD
    Just curious RD. Where are the metal assemblys welded for GU? JD
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vammy View Post
    John, with all due respect, that report is full of holes...and does not represent the facts.

    1. What that report does not discuss is the number of jobs that will be created in this country full time, making pumps, valves, associated hardware, transmission systems, and flow controls. These products will be redundant at each pumping station, and will require routine maintenance and replacement.

    Yes, I work in the oil industry. My company, based in Tulsa, manufactures a number of high pressure, high temperature products for the O&G exploration and well completion. Every piece of equipment that comes off our manufacturing floor is made in the USA, including the forged steel castings used for this equipment. No, my company will not directly benefit from Keystone XL...except where we (the US) will now have greater capacity to transport oil from North Dakota (see point 5 below), which should mean more drilling...which is where we sell our products.

    2. Yes, the number of construction workers, surveyors, and engineers building the pipeline will ultimately not be required. They will be replaced by the maintenance personnel, other inspectors, and pump station operators. Those are long term, American jobs.


    3. I take real issue with the report's stance that pipelines result in oilspills; the report cited 2010 as an example. Well, 2010 was not a good year...can anyone say Deepwater Horizon?

    4. The report makes a statement that the pipeline "diverts these tar sand oils from refineries in the mindwest...". Yes, it does. Anyone want to know why? The refineries in the upper midwest cannot handle heavy bituminous oil...it has to go to Texas, where we have established refineries that can handle this type of oil.

    5. Lastly, everyone seems to forget another little oilfield called Bakken Formation. Right now, we cannot transport the oil coming from this field at the rate we could actually produce it...Keystone XL will be able to transport Bakken shale oil to additional refineries in OK and TX.


    For some reason, I cannot link one of the better energy sites on the web; go to PennEnergy.com, and once on their site, search for "keystone pipline XL". There is a wealth of information there, including real and actual jobs this pipeline will create.

    The pipeline is a good thing for America. We need the oil, we need the jobs. We need the pipeline.
    I don't have a problem with oil pipelines per se or with KXL in particular: What I do have a problem with is someone trying to piss in my boot and tell me that it is raining..... putting the other merits and the perceived problems of the KXL pipeline aside for another time.... someone saying that this pipeline will create hundreds of thousands of jobs,when in fact it is going to "create" a minuscule percentage of that number, is doing just that.

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

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  6. #26
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Seems to me that at least part of this argument is around the fact that the Keystone Pipeline jobs will not be "permanent", but in several parts of the economy that is the nature of the industry. Oil field workers often go from one producer to another wherever the jobs are, much like the skilled craftsmen that work in the construction industry.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member dback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by menmon View Post
    No what is politically incorrect is using them to make our products knowing that they work in slave conditions for slave wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by JDogger View Post
    Just curious RD. Where are the metal assemblys welded for GU? JD

    I don't know where GU has the welding done......nor do I care. These two statements/lines of thought highlight the shortcomings of our educational system in the US. The argument that "Politics" has anything to do with manufacturing moving 'offshore' is absurd .... it is every "soccer" mom or "garage journal" commando, armed with the weekly 'ads' headed off to purchase anything from 'tec' screws to washing machines that has forced this transition. When a housewife will spend the entire day and $20.00 in fuel to save $12.00 on her weekly purchases.....industry takes note. Every Union contract, every government imposed benefit, every limitation imposed on industry of any kind (good or bad) necessitates the moves for sheer survival of the business whether stocks are traded on the DOW or privately owned. Buying habits.....not 'politics'. "WE" have been the driving force for this shift. The major difference between Reps & Dems is that Dems (a major player in the elements of this shift) now want to make it "political". Class Envy is an easy play when your only goal is to win votes.......it solves no problems, indeed creates more, but what the heck.....just win at all cost.....right?
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HPL View Post
    Seems to me that at least part of this argument is around the fact that the Keystone Pipeline jobs will not be "permanent", but in several parts of the economy that is the nature of the industry. Oil field workers often go from one producer to another wherever the jobs are, much like the skilled craftsmen that work in the construction industry.
    Semantics;

    I have a job
    , I work as a consultant in construction doing heavy rigging and structural repairs.Working year round I move from project to project.... did every project create a new job?

    But even for those who insist that the answer is yes......Speaking specifically about the KLX build, the number jobs in man years to build, divided by the 2 or three year duration of the project, and further diluted by being spread out over the 10 or 15 states that the 7 sections of the line encompasses, makes KXL's impact on creating "new jobs" hardly worth mentioning as the cornerstone for selling this project in in an economy that needs "to create in excess of 90,000 jobs a month to keep up with a growing labor force, and needs to create an additional 8 million jobs to get unemployment down to where it was at the onset of the recession".

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 09-07-2012 at 09:10 AM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDogger View Post
    Just curious RD. Where are the metal assemblys welded for GU? JD
    J Dogger,

    Gunners Up components are mfg. here in Tulsa and overseas. Final assembly is done here in Tulsa, much like a Ford or Chevy Pickup has parts from around the world but assembled here. But I understand the gist of your question and I know the snide point your trying to make. To answer your question more fully, it would be best to not focus your attention entirely on Gunners Up. Over the last 13 years my business partner and I have sweated and toiled to create 5 different companies all of which are still in operation today. From the 5 companies, we have created and sustained over 60 jobs here in Tulsa. A major portion of these jobs are mfg. positions for the home building industry (Wood Mill) and the auto body repair industry. The auto body jobs are actually honest to goodness "Green Jobs" where we recycle & re-mfg. damaged auto bumpers (Normally these are thrown away into a landfill) and resell these back into the auto market. So not only are we truly re-cycling we are employing skilled auto body techs to repair these bumpers. A WIN/WIN in my opinion.

    So having understood the underlying meaning of your question and having answered it in full, let me ask you this? How many US JOBS have you created lately?

    Trying to do my part in Tulsa regards,

    RD
    Official Launcher of the 2005, 2006,2007,2008,2009 & 2010 HRC Fall & Spring Grand!

  10. #30
    Senior Member Vammy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    I don't have a problem with oil pipelines per se or with KXL in particular: What I do have a problem with is someone trying to piss in my boot and tell me that it is raining..... putting the other merits and the perceived problems of the KXL pipeline aside for another time.... someone saying that this pipeline will create hundreds of thousands of jobs,when in fact it is going to "create" a minuscule percentage of that number, is doing just that.

    john
    Understood, and I do get the point of what you're saying. While I have not actively followed every jobs report on the pipeline, I have never seen anything that suggested "100"s of thousands" specific to the construction of the pipeline itself. I do recall an article stating "10's of thousands of direct jobs" that was quickly recanted/revised by TransCanada with a more realistic number...closer to 10,000, not 10's of thousands.

    Frankly, reporting of the entire pipeline from pro's, cons, jobs, etc, has been biased towards whichever reporter/group view they're promoting. Makes me wonder if someone grabbed the "10's of thousands of jobs" statement from somewhere without the context that ancillary and indirect jobs supporting the pipeline would be near this total. Achiro makes the point best: hotels, restaraunts, auto repair shops, all the businesses that make up a town/city would benefit. Try getting a hotel room in Williston, North Dakota these days...

    Make no mistake: not every town on the route would see these benefits. Certain places will be pipeline headquarters/substations, and see an influx of people...not at the rate of Williston, or Vernal UT, or Rock Springs WY, but I would suggest those towns will welcome the add-on jobs with open arms....
    Last edited by Vammy; 09-07-2012 at 11:56 AM. Reason: I can't spell....
    Scott Vermeer

    Bluegoose's Cut of Jazztime, aka Carver
    The new kid: Sophie, whose registered name will come to us soon enough....

    Forever with me:

    RockErin's Island Code 01/2012-06/2013...Koda, your promise and my dream ended way too soon. Them 2 yeller dawgs will help you find your way...

    Vammy's Chasing The Light 10/98-2/2011...Chase, you rocked. Now go find Bailey, and "hunt up!".

    Bailey 6/85-12/99...just a purebred, unregistered meat dawg...but what a girl. You were awesome, pook'ems...

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