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Question for you seasoned breeders...

5K views 34 replies 18 participants last post by  Angie B 
#1 ·
Here's what I have going on and I'm looking for the nod that I'm doing this the right way..

I'm breeding my 3 yo chessie bitch and the stud is a 8-9 hr drive. This is my girls first litter so I'm going with a live cover.

Started getting drops of blood Wednesday and on tuesday had some disharge. I'm calling Tuesday day #1
Got into the vet this morning and did a vaginal cytology (Day #3), Vet said 50-60 percent cornification.
Scheduled first progesterone test for Tuesday a.m. and I will get results the same day. I also scheduled 2 more progesterone tests one on Thursday and one on Saturday.

So for now my first test is on day #8.
My one concern, is 8 days too long to wait for that first test? I really don't want to miss her. I was thinking doing another cytology this Saturday just to be safe?

I know some ovulate really early and others go really slow so just wanted to make sure I'm being thurough enough. Any thoughts or experiences shared are appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
I do vaginal smears (cytology) every other day so we can track progress. That tells me when to run a progesterone test. If you don't have a hisory on her since it is her first litter, I would pull first progesterone by day 6 or 7, based on what the cytology is telling you. Reading the slides is very subjective, so it is only a tool.

Meredith
 
#3 ·
Hmm my dog is like clock-work on day 6 progesterone surge, might be better to schedule a test around 5-6. You can get a better idea of her cycle if you map it out throughout. Nice to know if you ever want to do frozen. As your doing live cover, you have a rather large window after ovulation to catch the correct time, ~3-7 days depending. Day 8 might be OK in that case it will tell you is if she's dropped the eggs, and if it's time to make the drive. I look for the time when they go clear, and do the progesterone test then it's usually a good indication.
 
#5 ·
I understand the vaginal cytology is only as accurate as the vet reading it but I'm going to get it done on Saturday morning to hopefully calm my nerves until Monday lol and have somewhat of an idea where we are. Changed my appointments to Progesterone on Monday, Wednesday and Friday being days 7 9 and 11. Really want to know the day of ovulation, for obvious saftey reasons I need a due date. This is my first litter and I'm already in panic mode lol lots of props to you breeders that do this over and over again! Keep the advice coming god knows I could use it :D
 
#7 ·
I think youre right to do your smear on Saturday with a prog. on Monday. if the smear comes back high cornification Sat, you cn always do a prog that day, you said same day results-so thats good. My guess though, at Monday, day 7 would be good-thats usually what I reccomend to incoming females and what I do for my own girls too....
BTW- are you going to sell your pups with Limited Reg???? HA HA ... Just teasing -no need to rile anyone up.:)
 
#6 ·
Matt, I have a girl about the same age, who came into season yesterday. Without the history being there w/ progesterone, etc., I will be in for a vet check on Monday (day 5) and based on those results, will schedule follow ups accordingly. Oftentimes I've found w/ mine, we can have 90%+ cornification and the progesterone will still be very low (0.3ng seems to be my first read!), but just in case this one doesn't read the same books as her relatives, I will play it safe. Good luck.
 
#8 ·
Vaginal cytology was a great tool when that was all we had, I successfully managed 3 popular stud dogs usingbtheir experience and vaginal cytology as my only guides. We now know that the changes in the vaginal epithelium are the result of estrogen which has nothing to do with ovulation. If you are that far away from the stud do yourself a favor and do progesterone levels, you could well save the cost of the tests in hotel/restaurant expenditures your time notwithstanding.
 
#10 ·
Heck drive out there and throw them together, if she whips his tail she aint ready.
 
#11 ·
One other thing is do yourself a favor and do price checking on progesterone testing one vet wanted 60 or so bucks a pop and i found another that charged 25 you can save alot by checking around granted i had to mail it off but my girl didnt ovulate until day19 so i wound up doing them every other day for 12 days cause i didnt want to miss it 210 vs 420 bucks is a difference good luck
 
#12 ·
All of my dogs were bred between day 11 and day 14.....the old thing was one week coming in, one week breeding and one week going out.

BUT the last 15 years, I have done progesterone testing to make sure. And, by golly they were all bred on day 12, 13, 14. Ginger is now pregnant..about 5 weeks now. I took her in for testing on day 7 (1.5), day 9 (4.1) and day 11 she was at 6.7 on day 11. So, off we went, driving to Oklahoma! She was bred on day 12 and 13! It is expensive to do the testing $83 each visit for my vet. I would automatically do these tests if I was doing fresh-chilled or frozen, but this time I did them because of the 20-hour drive ahead of me and wanted to be positive of ovulation.
 
#16 ·
Just wanted to update as to how everything has turned out.
On Friday we were at 2.6 with progesterone and with not being able to get results until Monday I made the call to load up and make the drive towards the stud (10 hrs). On Sunday we arrived and tried to get a tie. My bitch was being exactly that so after an attempt around noon and another that evening chalked it up to her not being quite ready. Tried again monday morning with no interest from the stud (both are first timers) although she was chasing him around and humping him. So did another progesterone monday afternoon that was 9.3 by the vets calculation she said ovulation was most Likely Sunday am. Yesterday morning tried again stud was still not interested as much as the bitch. So ended up having the vet collect him and inseminate her. Going again tomorrow to do another side by side. Sperm quality was good but count was low. Vet wasnt able to give a number... I'm hoping he just needed the pipes cleaned out at this point. Timing with the bitch shows tues-thurs being her optimal breeding days per my repro vet but the pet vet said we may be a little late? Any insight here? When this is over with I'm done! Just hoping to break even at this point
 
#17 ·
Cover her one more time and go home .....Repro vet is correct
 
#21 ·
Science has a better way, called progesterone testing, which is what Matt wisely chose to use. There is no point in guessing when you can go by the numbers. Some bitches will stand way early, some not at all. I have both. Matt, agree with Bridget, your repro vet was correct.
 
#22 ·
On Friday we were at 2.6 with progesterone and with not being able to get results until Monday I made the call to load up and make the drive towards the stud (10 hrs)
You're behind the power curve right there. Without same day turn around on the tests with the drive you have you made this hard on yourself.

Tried again monday morning with no interest from the stud (both are first timers) although she was chasing him around and humping him.
That makes it even worse and harder to manage.

Next time,,,, if there is a next time.

Take the bitch to the stud and let them manage all the tests and do the breeding. That's how I handle it whenever someone drops off a dog to be bred to one of the fella's in the kennel. I don't want bitch owners there. It's hard enough to get all the moving parts working together without someone standing over my shoulder clucking their tongue and ringing their hands. That's why I get a fee. I also can collect a stud and AI a bitch without needing a vet. Big time saver there.

So in the end all your tests did nothing to help the situation. For you or the stud dog owner. I would have tried live cover, but when you can do an AI it's more convenient. Both dogs are there so breed her every other day so you have her covered during her most receptive time. And no,, you were not late with the breeding.

FWIW.... Breeding dogs will make you crazy... LOL

Angie
 
#26 · (Edited)
Take the bitch to the stud and let them manage all the tests and do the breeding. That's how I handle it whenever someone drops off a dog to be bred to one of the fella's in the kennel. I don't want bitch owners there. It's hard enough to get all the moving parts working together without someone standing over my shoulder clucking their tongue and ringing their hands.
Boy, that's the truth. Some bitch owners think you should keep their dogs over holidays, not bath them for a year and leave crusties in their coat and you're supposed to feel priviledged to have them in your home, (PEEE YEWWW)don't understand that bitches need to be held in one place and not running around sniffing on a lead to get bred, that if bitches are problem breeders in the past, it's a good idea to let stud dog owners know that - there will probably not be a miracle that will make them an easy breeder all of a sudden, that my repro vet is just as good as the one 4 hours a way and one should not expect a stud dog owner to miss work to go to their favorite; that even people who present themselves as knowledgeable can really be kind of clueless; that stopping progesterone tests early may save you some $$ purportedly, you still won't get an accurate breeding time and the litter may be small or missed; that doing an AI in the vet's office might cost a little bit of $$, it's better than misssing a litter; that if the top reproduction vet in the country tells you that you are too late for your breeding - you are.. bashing the stud dog owner later on doesn't change the fact that late is late; keeping a bitch is season is disruptive to a kennel or house - while it gives the bitch onwer one less dog to take care of, it makes it more difficult on the stud dog owners house or a pro's kennel. Your female is much more comfortable at home, anyway. I'd much rather manage a breeding and have it done correctly than have it screwed up. People just need to be courteous and they will find they get more flexibilty from the other party. I've had some very nice people at my home that have been friends for years. Those are the types I prefer to deal with.
 
#23 ·
Lots of areas, my own included, don't have same-day turn around on progesterone, and alot of stud owners aren't able or willing to run a bitch back and forth for bloodwork. I get next day results if I get draws before noon, but the area vets are not open on Saturdays so I bribe someone to call me with results on Saturdays if I do a Friday draw. Otherwise, I drive 2 hours to a repro vet who has in-house testing. Most I've dealt with will keep a bitch being dropped off for up to a week or so once she's ready, or very close, but they really prefer to have progesterone testing done beforehand anymore. Some, of course, are long-time relationships and are very accommodating, but progesterone requirements seem to be more and more the norm, particularly for studs who are on the road vs standing at a kennel full-time. I agree, bitch owners being present are problematic most of the time and the dogs do much better without them around, but there are also stud owners who don't have a clue how to breed their dogs, stand there wringing their hands, haven't made arrangements for AI JIC, which you may not find out til you have spent a day driving there. If I have to spend a day driving, I time it for one tie, stay with the breeding (all but one of my bitches are easy breeders), turn around and come home. Very irritating to get a stud owner who is unprepared in that department and costs you time and money driving back and forth. Yep, breeding will drive you over the edge more often than not. Best laid plans or not, bitches are bitches and dogs are dogs, throw in the human component, yikes. Even better, you know darned well if you left the bitch to her own devices, she'd breed with the coyote out back in a flash and whelp 12 squalling mutts just fine.
 
#24 ·
You're singing to the choir girlfriend. :cool: There are other options also. Fresh chilled. No drive and the bitch owner is in control of the whole circus. With all the wonderful studs out there a person needs to do their research before hand and find a stud owner that will work with them and knows what they're doing. Especially if they themselves are new to the whole process.
Even better, you know darned well if you left the bitch to her own devices, she'd breed with the coyote out back in a flash and whelp 12 squalling mutts just fine.
True that plus whelp them just fine under the porch... *Argh*

Angie
 
#25 ·
Check with your local hospital labs. If they do a progesterone you need to ask if they are calibrated for lower concentrations. I use a local hospital that have an account with. This past breeding, which are now 5 weeks old, I even took a sample in on Sunday and had results before I got home. I draw blood everyday before feeding, spin it down, separate the serum and freeze it with the date. If I run a sample and it has already gone above 5 I can back up and run the other samples. Since it is 48 hours from ovulation to prime breeding you have a bit of time. My breeding was a frozen semen breeding, she ovulated Sat and we bred on Tuesday. Got 7 pups. After the 48 hours that the eggs need to mature you have a 2-3 day window. For frozen breeding my repro vet like 72 hours after ovulation. Cannot argue with the results.
Also Symbiotics makes a Snap progesterone test, although not giving an exact number you can find the initial rise.
 
#30 ·
Angie-
I don't really see how our progesterone didn't help. I was getting same day results with the exception of the weekend I wouldn't be able to get my Saturday results back until Monday. With her at 2.6 Friday am it was either risk it and wait until monday or hit the road and see if we could get her covered on Sunday. While out of town we pulled another progesterone on Monday (9.3). So I reported back to my repro vet on Tuesday with the results to make sure we were good to go. This is when she advised me that based on the days and values of our progesterone she most likely ovulated on Sunday AM and that our optimal breeding days were Tuesday-Thursday. I then explained to her what was going on with the attempts trying to get the live covers with little interest from the inexperienced stud. This is when I was told by my repro vet that the timing was right where we needed to be and that we were gonna have to AI to get the job done. Driving out there I had full intentions on doing live cover however it just didn't work out that way... I don't see how our progesterone tests were worthless or didn't help. I think without them we wouldn't have known when she ovulated and when to do the AI's. My main concern here was the pet vet seemed concerned we may be late while my repro vet back home said we were just right, which had me concerned after the first AI. The second side by side was done yesterday. We didn't attempt another cover but from being in the vet together we still weren't seeing much interest from the stud. When I got home last night I let my 11 month old male out of his kennel and in the blink of an eye he was on her out and ready to go and I had to wrestle him off of her to put him back up. Of course we couldn't have gotten that out there.

Broken Guns- Had I used your method I would've driven 22 hours this week and stayed 4 nights in hotels to end up with a play date for my dog and no puppies. Neither dog was very receptive although the testing said it was time. The stud would mount her and bail out after a few seconds. Tried leaving them alone, helping by holding the bitch, tried taking just the stud owner out of the picture and again with me out of the picture. It just wasn't gonna happen.

Dr. Nate- I was also told that with her progesterone being 9 on monday that once it gets that high the progesterone hardens the eggs which makes them difficult to be fertilized.. Do you put any stock in this?
 
#32 ·
Dr. Nate- I was also told that with her progesterone being 9 on monday that once it gets that high the progesterone hardens the eggs which makes them difficult to be fertilized.. Do you put any stock in this?
Absolutely not!!! Every bitch has different progesterone levels the absolute number does not mean much after they go over 5. 5 means ovulation. The grandmother to my current litter was having a weird heat. She seemed ready but the stud was not interested. Stud owner took her to a good repro vet and her progesterone was 23. Figured it was way too late. Did not even try a side by side. The next night they tied and we got 6 pups. Now that was very unusual, but it shows that what I am talking about.
My current mother bitch's progesterone was 11.2 on Sunday and she was bred by surgical AI on Tuesday. 48 hrs later. Did not measure the progesterone then as, again, the number does not matter. We were looking for 72 hours after she ovulated. So do not get hung up in the numbers except for the initial rise over 2.5 and when it goes over 5.

Good luck.
 
#34 ·
I'm aware that ovulation is at 5 and the eggs ripen 48 hrs after ovulation from talking with my repro vet and all the research I've done the last couple of months. I never studied this hard in college! Which is why when the vet that did the AI said this it really through me off because it just went against everything I had read. Mine looked to Ovulate on day 13 (sun) so hopefully we'll both be posting puppy pics November 17-18! I will look at the link you send me tonight as well as get that book ordered. Thanks for the info!
 
#35 · (Edited)
Angie-
I don't really see how our progesterone didn't help. I was getting same day results with the exception of the weekend I wouldn't be able to get my Saturday results back until Monday. With her at 2.6 Friday am it was either risk it and wait until monday or hit the road and see if we could get her covered on Sunday. While out of town we pulled another progesterone on Monday (9.3). So I reported back to my repro vet on Tuesday with the results to make sure we were good to go. This is when she advised me that based on the days and values of our progesterone she most likely ovulated on Sunday AM and that our optimal breeding days were Tuesday-Thursday. I then explained to her what was going on with the attempts trying to get the live covers with little interest from the inexperienced stud. This is when I was told by my repro vet that the timing was right where we needed to be and that we were gonna have to AI to get the job done. Driving out there I had full intentions on doing live cover however it just didn't work out that way... I don't see how our progesterone tests were worthless or didn't help. I think without them we wouldn't have known when she ovulated and when to do the AI's. My main concern here was the pet vet seemed concerned we may be late while my repro vet back home said we were just right, which had me concerned after the first AI. The second side by side was done yesterday. We didn't attempt another cover but from being in the vet together we still weren't seeing much interest from the stud. When I got home last night I let my 11 month old male out of his kennel and in the blink of an eye he was on her out and ready to go and I had to wrestle him off of her to put him back up. Of course we couldn't have gotten that out there
.

You made your decision to drive out to do the breeding on a 2.6 because of not being able to get results during the weekend. Well heck. To use these tests as they were intended you need to have that availability. IMHO. You went by the seat of your pants and made the drive which without the tests you would have done the same thing. I personally wouldn't have given much weight to the 2.6 other then it looked it was confirming that she could possibly be within the normal time frame to breed. Fresh semen is viable in the vaginal tract for up to 5 days. 2 breedings easily cover that time frame or stick around another day or two and get a third if you wanted to play it safe. That's where I would have stuck the money as opposed to $100 progesterone tests.

I feel progesterone tests are more productive when shipping in semen either chilled or frozen. The viability of both is much less then fresh. You need more of an exact ETA to get a breeding to take.

I also would have lined up someone on the studs end who was knowledgeable and had the equipment and expertise to help out. Pay them for their time. Plus you would have learned a ton about "how" to get through a breeding successfully. The whole process can be extremely stressful as you now know. No need to do that to yourself.

Good luck with the litter...

Angie
 
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