Dog takes off before I finish cast...or perhaps barely start cast

[Breck]

How would one do corrections (assuming I get to the point where I can blame the dog and not myself)? Dog is sitting, cast is dog's signal to go...I'm afraid I would end up with a dog that doesn't go at all if I nicked him for starting to go as I cast.

Read my last post please!
If dog goes in proper direction when you cast, oh well, No correction. Unless he goes the wrong direction L vs R or digs back on an over cast etc, let him go.

sands in front of chin, Stop dog, count 5 seconds out loud if you have to, then cast. While waiting if dog is still sitting but looking around blow the sit again.

[MooseGooser]

How would one do corrections (assuming I get to the point where I can blame the dog and not myself)? Dog is sitting, cast is dog's signal to go...I'm afraid I would end up with a dog that doesn't go at all if I nicked him for starting to go as I cast.

You dont HAVE to nick him ,or burn him, .... Just Another whistle !... Try attrition first! Correction enough! He WANTS to go. he just has to wait till you tell him to.
He is breaking his sit command! he moves before he has been told to . He has not seen a COMPLETE cast. He broke sit. Sit means sit untill told to do otherwise. Did you COMPLETLY tell him???... No!... he guessed!!! maybe right,, maybe wrong. doesnt matter. the sit is the issue.

How long has he been running cold blinds?

Sometimes too with young dogs, I have been shown that following the dog out on the blind is very helpful. You remain in relativly close proximity to the dog, which helps with control..

[Colonel Blimp]

Mitty,

Here is another of Blimps aphorisms ... "be consistent but not predictable".

You chuck out a dummy and the dog thinks "I'm going to be sent for that, perhaps I should go right now and save a bit of time". He's right because every time you throw a dummy, guess what? He's sent for it. So you need to break the links in his mind that give rise to expectation of a retrieve.

You can do this in lots of ways and the first is to pick up a high percentage of the dummies yourself leaving the dog at sit. Then instead of casting him off, put him at heel and walk away from the bird. Then throw another dummy and .... walk away from that one too. Throw a tennis ball and cast him off, but stop him immediately on the whistle and send him for the first mark. Then stop him, and call him in, and cast to an un-cued blind. You know the dog better than we do and you can judge how far to take these remediation measures, but from now on until you are confident he's getting the message, NEVER send him to the expected bird. I used to do this with Springers and make it all a big game, mixing up literally dozens of commands, verbal, whistle, and hand in any one short session, but ALWAYS being one step in front of Fido. As regards the timing of the command, don't just count up to five, you need to put his reward (the retrieve) on a variable schedule, and you should be absolutely unpredictable; anywhere from one second to three minutes.

Many ladies of my acquaintance know the secret of relationships ..."keep 'em guessing."

Eug

[Miriam Wade]

Read my last post please!
If dog goes in proper direction when you cast, oh well, No correction. Unless he goes the wrong direction L vs R or digs back on an over cast etc, let him go.

sands in front of chin, Stop dog, count 5 seconds out loud if you have to, then cast. While waiting if dog is still sitting but looking around blow the sit again.

But the problem is that he's going on any body movement at all-not a cast.

To the op-the dog will give you signs he's going to move before he does and you need to be able to read those and be ready with a "Sit" when his butt starts leaving the ground. I'd make it verbal because it's personal and as has been said-it's correction that he doesn't get to go. However, I have nicked too if he is very clearly on autopilot. It didn't change his attitude on running blinds at all. He still goes 100 mph. He's an older dog now and has gotten so much better about being focused, but don't expect time to cure this. I'd get a handle on it now.

FWIW-our blinds can be brilliant or head hanging moments too! I double staked him a couple weeks ago and after running 2 sets of marks and 3 blinds with very little breathing room in between he was like a 2 year old fighting a nap on the last blind we ran. Not a pretty sight!

Anyhoo-take everyone's advice and I bet in a few days you'll see some improvement.

M

[FOM]

You need to be adding a second whistle. Young dogs just off the T will tend to try and do the right thing, anticipate the cast, they are trying to be good. So a second whistle, slow down and make them watch the cast...this is another reason why running longer than normal blinds helps too, you have room for multiple sits to use attrition to correct the auto cast...you can "follow" the dog out to keep the control but you allow space to make up for the ground lost with the auto cast.

[mitty]

Ok I worked with her on this today, keeping y'all's comments in mind. Here's what I see.

First, she is trying really really hard. She loves the game!

She does not move, not even a toenail, until I have my hands in the casting ("prayer") position and start to move one. I tried dancing around, wiggling my hands in other positions, and her sit is solid that way. This is when I am fairly close to her, I did not experiment beyond say 20 yds.

I set out a pile. I would raise my hand to start the cast, she would start to go, so I tell her sit. She sits. Rinse repeat rinse repeat rinse repeat...finally she stays sitting until I finish the cast, but then does not go! So I gave her an "ok" and off she went. I did a few repetitions of this, no light bulb yet. She's confused.

I thought maybe she is doing this (auto cast) because she knows where the bumper is so I experimented with a cold blind. Disaster. She got totally confused when I stopped her from going before I finished a cast.

I revisted TT awhile ago, she did it perfect. She did ok at 8-handed casting and walking baseball. So while a bad habit has developed it is not totally ingrained.

My plan is to work with her on a pile like a few of you suggested, I gotta think some more about what to do about her confusion.

On the bright side of things, this is something I can work on in a city park, a few short sessions a day. Once she gets this, her blind work will improve drastically.

Thanks all---I'm also working on counting slowly to 5!

[mitty]

You need to be adding a second whistle. Young dogs just off the T will tend to try and do the right thing, anticipate the cast, they are trying to be good. So a second whistle, slow down and make them watch the cast...this is another reason why running longer than normal blinds helps too, you have room for multiple sits to use attrition to correct the auto cast...you can "follow" the dog out to keep the control but you allow space to make up for the ground lost with the auto cast.

I don't totally follow. When does the second whistle happen?

[T-Pines]

I don't totally follow. When does the second whistle happen?

My guess is that FOM is suggesting that you reinforce the sit with another sit command while the dog is already sitting, and before you give your cast. This should make sense to your dog since, I believe you've done Hillmann-style training. If so, you could also reinforce the sit with a 'nick' as you have undoubtedly done during Hillmann training.

In fact, in addition to all the good advice you've received on this topic, you might consider working on this in the Hillmann Traffic Cop format.

Traffic Cop is fundamentally about a MOTIONLESS standard of SIT ... no matter what else is happening. This sit standard should include the requirement that the dog's attention remain fixated on you. In Traffic Cop, you walk around at various distances from the dog. You are teaching the dog to sit motionless and focused on you from remote postions. You reinforce the SIT while moving and while standing still. You can assume various arm positions and various hand positions, just about any movements or gestures other than movements that are specifically taught to as commands (such as casts). All the while you can hold the dog responsible for the highest level of the sit standard.

When this is going perfectly, add a bumper or bird to the routine, sometimes releasing the dog to pick it up, other times picking it up yourself, and sometimes leaving it on the ground as you heel away to work on some obedience. (I think Blimp's advice was very Hillmann-like).

In the instances where you release the dog to retrieve, mix these up between remote releases and releases from your side. Also mix up the remote releases between verbal (eg., "Fetch") and a cast (both silent and verbal). The benefit of this is that you are able to reinforce your sit standard (the primary purpose of this exercise) while teaching the dog exactly what is expected when he is released for a retrieve -- any type of release that is in your repertoire. You can address anticipation issues, bugging, etc. It is only limited by your creativity in connection with the problem you are trying to solve.

In the Traffic Cop format you can work on any issues associated the moment of transition from your SIT STANDARD to the release from that SIT standard, whether it is a retrieve, a recall, a cast, etc.

Jim

[mitty]

I'm having trouble seeing this as a violation of the sit command. I think the dog thinks that I have given her a command to move by starting the cast, and that she does not know (my bad) that she is supposed to wait till I finish the cast.

As I outlined above, she does not move until I have my hands up and start to raise one. I walked around her, jumping around making silly noises, moving my hands in various ways and she did not move a toenail, only her head. She only started to go once I had my hands in position and started to raise one.

But T-Pines you have given me an idea: I will stop her on her way to pile, and I will tell her sit-sit-sit as I do the cast, she will stay sitting since I am telling her sit, but then I hope know to go when I finish the cast. Hmmmm.

[RetrieversONLINE]

Mitty,

Here is another of Blimps aphorisms ... "be consistent but not predictable".

You chuck out a dummy and the dog thinks "I'm going to be sent for that, perhaps I should go right now and save a bit of time". He's right because every time you throw a dummy, guess what? He's sent for it. So you need to break the links in his mind that give rise to expectation of a retrieve.

You can do this in lots of ways and the first is to pick up a high percentage of the dummies yourself leaving the dog at sit. Then instead of casting him off, put him at heel and walk away from the bird. Then throw another dummy and .... walk away from that one too. Throw a tennis ball and cast him off, but stop him immediately on the whistle and send him for the first mark. Then stop him, and call him in, and cast to an un-cued blind. You know the dog better than we do and you can judge how far to take these remediation measures, but from now on until you are confident he's getting the message, NEVER send him to the expected bird. I used to do this with Springers and make it all a big game, mixing up literally dozens of commands, verbal, whistle, and hand in any one short session, but ALWAYS being one step in front of Fido. As regards the timing of the command, don't just count up to five, you need to put his reward (the retrieve) on a variable schedule, and you should be absolutely unpredictable; anywhere from one second to three minutes.

Many ladies of my acquaintance know the secret of relationships ..."keep 'em guessing."

Eug

Eug
I like your aphorism of Be Consistent but not Predictable. It reminded me of another, Be Particular not Picky!

While I enjoy your training suggestions particularly as they can help cultivate a good hunting dog, I want to challenge your suggestion and then receive your feedback. Expectation training (non-expectation!) as practiced in the UK has it’s benefits. When I captained Team Canada in the International Retriever Event in the UK a few years ago, it did produce some good results in that venue. I have not been able to make it work while pursuing North American venues like Field Trials.

I can play the games that you suggest above all day with my dogs and achieve stellar performance. However, in order to play the big league FT circuit here we have to expose our dogs to BIG set-ups with birds on a very regular basis all year-that includes a diet of fliers. As you know our FT marking tests have much anticipation and all the theatrics with the white coats and imminent fireworks. If one could find 3 willing training buddies and one had the time in their life, I predict you could shoot off ten set-ups and only retrieve one and you would have un-done the non-expectation. Our dogs are just so high desire (cultivated and bred!) that they are always wanting and thus expecting to go. This is not something you can “readily” fix training alone and as thousands over here know I have worked on that and studied that and practiced that-I mean the training alone part. So, I think the suggestion has limits for our marking tests.

For Blind teamwork and for Mitty, it has some merit but it also seems she has created an auto-cast, not thoroughly reinforced her sit and go and has handler casting issues (including predictability).

In my opinion she will be wise to go back to a more yard type situation as some have suggested, establish a new standard and then gradually graduate to the field on a larger scale. TT will not solve her problem. I detail a procedure in Retrievers ONLINE Winter 2012-which I think she receives?

Anyway Eug- comments on my thoughts above?

Cheers (Make mine a not so wee dram!)