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Thread: Pointing Goldens

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    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Default Pointing Goldens

    Had a client ask me, does anyone actually breed goldens that point? Looking in the western US.

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    Senior Member Swampcollie's Avatar
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    Because of the breeds that went into creating the Golden Retriever, once in a while you'll get a dog that points. There really isn't any way to predict which dogs will point. (even from the same litter.)

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    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Funny you mention that - my 7 month old has been pointing field mice and activity in gopher holes that are in big fields. that may be common and much different than pointing live birds, but it got me thinking because I bought her from a husband and wife team where the husband breeds pointing labs and the wife breeds field goldens. I'll bet if anyone would know the answer to your question it would be them. They are in Ellensberg, Washington. He has Tiger Mountain Pointing Labs and she has SkyRiver Goldens. Both have separate web sites, but operate on the same beautiful grounds.

    Jennifer

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    Senior Member tzappia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post
    Had a client ask me, does anyone actually breed goldens that point? Looking in the western US.
    I hope not! The little and infrequent pointing done is merely Flash Pointing.
    Tony C. Zappia
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    FTCH Adirondac Tea for Two WC, ** (Tea), 2009 GRCA National Specialty Derby win, Open Win
    (Fireside) Field of Emeralds (Emme)
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  5. #5

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    What is the difference between pointing and flash pointing? Do pointers ever flash point? Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm a retriever guy, and a newb at that!
    El Matavenados
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    Creamlevel's Shock and Awe "Boomer"

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    Senior Member tzappia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Flanagan View Post
    What is the difference between pointing and flash pointing? Do pointers ever flash point? Sorry for the dumb question, but I'm a retriever guy, and a newb at that!
    Numerous animals will flash point game they are stalking - from domestic cats, various dog breeds, to African prey animals. A Flash Point is just that - an infrequent point that may occur once an outing, once a month or maybe once a year.
    Tony C. Zappia
    www.tonyzappia.com
    FTCH Adirondac Tea for Two WC, ** (Tea), 2009 GRCA National Specialty Derby win, Open Win
    (Fireside) Field of Emeralds (Emme)
    Heads Up Winter Storm Warning (Ice)

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by tzappia View Post
    Numerous animals will flash point game they are stalking - from domestic cats, various dog breeds, to African prey animals. A Flash Point is just that - an infrequent point that may occur once an outing, once a month or maybe once a year.
    Thanks! So, if I understand correctly, a flash point is the same as any other point, but the animal cannot be depended upon to point consistently or often, because the instinct isn't as strong? If this is the case, I think the term "flash point" is misleading, and should be dropped, perhaps in lieu of a more accurate term of "a mild pointing instinct".

    I wasn't sure if what I was seeing was pointing or not, but there were times when running my lab (not from "pointing" lines, to my knowledge) in a field, and as he looked for his mark, he would stop and stare intently at a gopher hole. One time, while hunting quail, the abruptly stopped and stared intently at a bush, with a paw lifted, as if in mid-step. I thought, "naw, that can't be a point...he just smells a rabbit." Then, while running him in a family pheasant hunt for the CA DFG, hunting planted, farm-raised pheasants, we saw one fly from another field into ours. We went back and worked the area, and couldn't find it. We made a final sweep through the area, and as my dog was quartering, he suddenly put on the breaks and whipped around and BAM! He was on point, staunch, foot lifted, shoulders hunched, head down and in a straight line with his body, pointing at a patch of knee-high grass a few feet away. We hurried over, and I called "BOOMER!" to release him, and he pounced, flushing the pheasant, which the hunter missed. But wow, that was cool!

    So what I had dismissed before, I finally realized was what you might refer to as "flash pointing", and to use my term, my dog has a "mild pointing instinct." All the other birds he'd found that morning had been flushed immediately, without hesitation. But something in his brain said "FREEZE!", and he locked up instantly.

    I'm not training him to hold point, or breeding him as a pointing lab or anything like that, but as a newb, I find the distinction between a "real" point and a "flash" point to be less than satisfying. Unfortunately, there are retriever purists and pointer purists that look down their noses with disdain at the notion of a "pointing lab". I don't see what the big deal is, and purists in general are rather annoying (yes, I am one in certain areas, and yes, I'm annoying!).

    If there are pointing goldens, I don't see a problem with selecting for that trait. The retriever purist would say "the golden retriever is a retriever- not a pointer, and pointing is not included in the breed standard, so don't select for it". I hear the pointer purists (I'm not saying you're one of these, Tony) say things about "flash pointing", or "not real pointing", without defining what a "true point" is, and that leaves inquiring minds like mine saying "huhhhh????"

    Now, if someone for some reason wanted to develop what they consider the ultimate gun dog, the "Golden Pointing Retriever" or whatever, then the REAL purists would come out of the woodwork, screaming about designer breeds, etc.
    El Matavenados
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    Creamlevel's Shock and Awe "Boomer"

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    Senior Member tzappia's Avatar
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    Donald, my Goldens flashpoint on occasion but I would prefer to have my dogs push and bust pheasants rather than freeze on point. I've seen too many pressured birds run away from pointing dogs whereas a good flushing dog will get those birds in the air. Live those flushers!
    Tony C. Zappia
    www.tonyzappia.com
    FTCH Adirondac Tea for Two WC, ** (Tea), 2009 GRCA National Specialty Derby win, Open Win
    (Fireside) Field of Emeralds (Emme)
    Heads Up Winter Storm Warning (Ice)

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    Senior Member cpmm665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Flanagan View Post
    Now, if someone for some reason wanted to develop what they consider the ultimate gun dog, the "Golden Pointing Retriever" or whatever, then the REAL purists would come out of the woodwork, screaming about designer breeds, etc.
    NAH, they'd just get a Flat Coat.

  10. #10
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    I had a female Golden, Braevue's Ali Mcgnaw that was a staunch pointer. She pointed pheasants, grouse, woodcock and quail; I don't know how she did it but she would hold the bird right there until we came up behind her and flushed it. One of her daughters also pointed. Ali was incredible fun to hunt with!

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